Minus is the beginning of the end for the franchise (writing-wise, of course)

[DBZAOTA482]

Minus is probably the worst official work ever release for the entire franchise... well second only to Bio-Broly and Final Bout, but the effect it left on the franchise is not much better. Here's some shit it set up for:

-Goku being an amoral and mentally challenged manchild who doesn't give a shit about his family
-Fanservice pandering to the max like sucking on Vegeta and his families' dicks
-Yamcha being treated as nothing but a joke even by the series itself
-Chi-Chi is nothing more than angry comic relief
-Trunks x Mai really being a thing

Apart from introducing Gine, Minus is just one big malignant tumor that should've never existed. It pussified Bardock and took away his character development, ruined Goku's backstory, and treated Raditz like shit.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

So... what is this thread for? Also, how did it set up those things? Lastly, how are are they bad things?

You kind of need to set up a logical chain here.

[MarcFBR]

I'm mostly amused that of the five points the original poster made...

Four of them have been pretty much true for many years.

I mean...

Goku's priority was always fighting over nearly anything else, to the point that him abandoning his family was pretty commonly stated by fans for years.
Fanservice is an issue? Cause it's been with the franchise since the very beginning.
Yamcha sitting/standing around during the Buu saga was... kind of hilarious to be honest. For most of it he's just... there. Far removed from the character we were introduced to, who had basically been pulled down in his usage for quite awhile at that point.
Chi-Chi being angry comic relief has been pretty much true since around the timeskip when the anime became Z.



It might just be that he's decided he doesn't like Dragon Ball anymore and feels the need to rant about it not being what he wants.

[successoroffate]

Is it canon? Cause you can do what I did and just don't acknowledge it exists. I don't really think it has done any harm to the franchise.

What did Final Bout do wrong?I thought it was pretty damn cool to play with friends or by myself. Are you judging Final Bout with current Gen standards?

And I didn't know cursing and that kind of unjustified hate language was allowed here.

[DBZAOTA482]

Is it canon? Cause you can do what I did and just don't acknowledge it exists. I don't really think it has done any harm to the franchise.

What did Final Bout do wrong?I thought it was pretty damn cool to play with friends or by myself. Are you judging Final Bout with current Gen standards?

And I didn't know cursing and that kind of unjustified hate language was allowed here.

-Well Toriyama wrote it so you kinda have to accept it as canon
-Nothing except being kusoge garbage. Nothing to do with it being old... it was shit then and it's shit now.
-It's all a matter of context. You would have to be a SJW or some shit to be offended by mere hyperboles.

[Kanassa]

-Goku being an amoral and mentally challenged manchild who doesn't give a shit about his family

Amoral has always been apart of Goku's character, he's had dumb moments in Super but saying he's mentally challenged is asinine. And doesn't give a shit about his family? Out of all the dragonball material, Super shows us him actually caring about his family the MOST.

-Yamcha being treated as nothing but a joke even by the series itself

Yamcha was always a joke, that was the basis of his character. Hell, Super has been very respectful to him and made him better, they didn't treat him as a joke, they made his number 1 meme a sign of victory.

-Chi-Chi is nothing more than angry comic relief

As always, again.

-Trunks x Mai really being a thing

What's wrong with that being a thing? Just because it's not your ship doesn't make it automatically bad, otherwise I wouldn't be a Harry Potter fan.

And as others have said, how does Minus set this up?

[Doctor.]

How did Minus influence any of those things?

[ekrolo2]

Wasn't all of this stuff present beforehand? I mean, besides Trunks and Mai.

Yamcha was always worthless shit tier, Chi-Chi's been over the top (especially in the Z anime) for ages, Goku's been a selfish who cares about nothing else but fighting since Vegeta,...

[Bansho64]

Goku's been a selfish who cares about nothing else but fighting since Vegeta,...

Eh, I'd argue that he didn't really start turning into a dirtbag until after the whole Namek/Freeza thing. He was selfish, but I didn't really get the overwhelming feeling that he didn't care until the Android arc stuff.

[Doctor.]

Goku's been a selfish who cares about nothing else but fighting since Vegeta,...

23rd Budokai.

[ekrolo2]

Goku's been a selfish who cares about nothing else but fighting since Vegeta,...

23rd Budokai.

I was gonna say that but at least there he has a good practical reason not to kill Piccolo and that's so the DBs don't vanish. With Vegeta there is no such element: its all selfishness.

[Doctor.]

Goku's been a selfish who cares about nothing else but fighting since Vegeta,...

23rd Budokai.

I was gonna say that but at least there he has a good practical reason not to kill Piccolo and that's so the DBs don't vanish. With Vegeta there is no such element: its all selfishness.

B-But Vegeta said in the Boo arc that Goku predicted he would change.

[ekrolo2]

23rd Budokai.

I was gonna say that but at least there he has a good practical reason not to kill Piccolo and that's so the DBs don't vanish. With Vegeta there is no such element: its all selfishness.

B-But Vegeta said in the Boo arc that Goku predicted he would change.

Do people actually use this as a defense?!

Fuck, what am I saying, of course, they do. This is the same fanbase that vehemently "defends" Goku as a pants shitting idiot if you suggest for him to come up with a decent plan then praise the crap out of something that gives him an IQ above that of an inert rock.

[Zephyr]

Minus is probably the worst official work ever release for the entire franchise... well second only to Bio-Broly and Final Bout, but the effect it left on the franchise is not much better. Here's some shit it set up for:

-Goku being an amoral and mentally challenged manchild who doesn't give a shit about his family
-Fanservice pandering to the max like sucking on Vegeta and his families' dicks
-Yamcha being treated as nothing but a joke even by the series itself
-Chi-Chi is nothing more than angry comic relief
-Trunks x Mai really being a thing

Isn't "Dragon Ball Minus" just a bonus chapter in Jaco? Wouldn't Jaco in general have to be the beginning of the end for the franchise? Trunks x Mai was set up in Battle of Gods, not in Jaco. Pinning that on Jaco is dumb. Goku's recklessness and Yamcha's ineptitude have long been established in the manga. Pinning that on Jaco is dumb.

Goku being excessively braindead, Yamcha being the butt of an episode-long joke, and bitchy Chichi are all things that Toei is responsible for, and Toei's never been perfect at writing Toriyama's characters (bitchy Chichi in particular has always been their shtick). Blaming an isolated Toriyama work for negatively impacting completely unrelated Toei works later on down the line is dumb.

"The franchise" isn't some monolithic nebulous entity. There are many different parties involved in the production process, even in just writing alone. Toriyama, Toyotaro, editors from the Dragon Ball Room, individual episode script writers at Toei, etc.

What do you even mean by "sucking on Vegeta and his families' dicks"?

[successoroffate]

Is it canon? Cause you can do what I did and just don't acknowledge it exists. I don't really think it has done any harm to the franchise.

What did Final Bout do wrong?I thought it was pretty damn cool to play with friends or by myself. Are you judging Final Bout with current Gen standards?

And I didn't know cursing and that kind of unjustified hate language was allowed here.

-Well Toriyama wrote it so you kinda have to accept it as canon
-Nothing except being kusoge garbage. Nothing to do with it being old... it was shit then and it's shit now.
-It's all a matter of context. You would have to be a SJW or some shit to be offended by mere hyperboles.

"Malignant tumor" is a matter of context. I can't believe I missed that.

[Israelite Wolfman]

Minus is probably the worst official work ever release for the entire franchise... well second only to Bio-Broly and Final Bout, but the effect it left on the franchise is not much better. Here's some shit it set up for:

-Goku being an amoral and mentally challenged manchild who doesn't give a shit about his family
-Fanservice pandering to the max like sucking on Vegeta and his families' dicks
-Yamcha being treated as nothing but a joke even by the series itself
-Chi-Chi is nothing more than angry comic relief
-Trunks x Mai really being a thing

Apart from introducing Gine, Minus is just one big malignant tumor that should've never existed. It pussified Bardock and took away his character development, ruined Goku's backstory, and treated Raditz like shit.

May I have a link to this "Minus"? All I know of is Minus from Jaco and it's just an alternate Goku & Bardock story based upon Battle of Gods.

[VegettoEX]

The "Dragon Ball Minus" chapter was included when Jaco the Galactic Patrolman received its collected release in Japan. It is not freely available to read online (legally, anyway).

We have documented it, however, in our manga guide here on Kanzenshuu.

[Deathbringer]

-Goku being an amoral and mentally challenged manchild who doesn't give a shit about his family

That's always been a thing that people have noticed, if even as a joke. He does care about his family in modern material lots of times like when he got angry at finding out that Zamasu killed Goten and Chi-Chi or the fact that he went out and got a job to support his family, he almost cares about his family more in modern material even if he does go off to train a lot. Also being amoral was definitely one of his traits in the original series, he makes it clear he's fine with putting lots of people in danger just to get a good fight (sparing Vegeta, not stopping the androids)

Not to mention that Goku does nothing in Minus other than float in a tank and then get put in a pod and sent off so all it really sets up is that him getting hit on the head made him forget his parents since it turns out he actually did know them.

-Fanservice pandering to the max like sucking on Vegeta and his families' dicks

Vegeta is a popular character so of course they're going to keep him relevant, future Trunks as well. Again, this was in the original series as well since the first 2 people other than Goku to get the SSJ power up is Trunks and Vegeta even though in the previous arc it was made out to be a special thing exclusive to Goku.

-Yamcha being treated as nothing but a joke even by the series itself
-Chi-Chi is nothing more than angry comic relief
-Trunks x Mai really being a thing

None of these characters are in Dragon Ball Minus, it's so obvious that this is just a thinly veiled rant of the modern material disguised as a rant on DBM specifically. Yamcha had plenty of comedy moments in the original series, he was introduced with an irrational fear of women being played for laughs and he got other stuff like the being hit in the groin in the 23rd TB and most famously dying to a relatively weak enemy (even though the series was in a serious tone when that happened, hence why no one cites him having #20's hand through his stomach as a funny moment), but those are the moments that led to him being considered a joke, Minus had nothing to do with it not least because he isn't in it. Same with Chi-Chi, she spent a lot of the DBZ anime filler being annoyed with Goku, even though it's a tired joke now it's still one that was made popular in DBZ, it has nothing to do with DBM.

[successoroffate]

So, the keyword here is "Alternate" right?

[DBZAOTA482]

Amoral has always been apart of Goku's character, he's had dumb moments in Super but saying he's mentally challenged is asinine. And doesn't give a shit about his family? Out of all the dragonball material, Super shows us him actually caring about his family the MOST.

If not knowing what kissing is, wasting time asking useless questions and holding back when he knows Vegeta will die, forgetting the senzus to an important battle which requires the senzus, not understanding Krillin's speech, not learning from mistakes, and not understanding the gravity of a life-or-death situation isn't mentally challenged then I dunno what is. Also aside from raging over Zamasu killing Chi-Chi and Goten there's very few moments that show he cares in Super. Besides, I wasn't just talking about Super.

Also, Goku... amoral?:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Yamcha was always a joke, that was the basis of his character. Hell, Super has been very respectful to him and made him better, they didn't treat him as a joke, they made his number 1 meme a sign of victory.

Other than the baseball episode (which still mostly had jokes at his expense) he's only around to look like an arrogant fool.

What's wrong with that being a thing?

Everything about it.

And as others have said, how does Minus set this up?

Well Minus had that bit of trivia where Toriyama says Goku doesn't care for Gohan and Chi-Chi as family members while Vegeta puts his family on a pedestal even though they practically the same priorities (training over everything). Minus also only happened because people wanted to know who Goku's mother was... after we had Freeza being resurrected (which was pandering at the highest order), Vegeta x Bulma being pushed to the extreme like the writers are shippers, the return of Future Trunks and an evil Goku who isn't really an evil Goku (not bad but definitely pandering), and a female Super Saiyan (which we don't know would a good or bad thing yet but it's most likely pandering).

Is it canon? Cause you can do what I did and just don't acknowledge it exists. I don't really think it has done any harm to the franchise.

What did Final Bout do wrong?I thought it was pretty damn cool to play with friends or by myself. Are you judging Final Bout with current Gen standards?

And I didn't know cursing and that kind of unjustified hate language was allowed here.

-Well Toriyama wrote it so you kinda have to accept it as canon
-Nothing except being kusoge garbage. Nothing to do with it being old... it was shit then and it's shit now.
-It's all a matter of context. You would have to be a SJW or some shit to be offended by mere hyperboles.

"Malignant tumor" is a matter of context. I can't believe I missed that.

Comparing something fictitious to malignant tumor in a joking matter is not much to get wiled up over. Making light of the tumor itself is crossing the line.