What do you think are some of the worst retcons in the series?

[Grimlock]

In my mind, most things in that special did happen. The only thing that changed was how Goku left, this time with his father loving him and saying goodbye.

As much as I also want for most of the things of the TV Special to happen in some way, we have to deal with time constraints.

From the moment Bardock arrives on Vegeta until its destruction, there is a one-month timeskip. You would have to cram, somehow, the events of planet Meat if you want Bardock's friends to die and for him to get the headband in that short window. I know this is fiction, but I still think it's impossible for Bardock to travel to a (probably distant) planet and return within a month.

Placing the TV Special before Dragon Ball Minus also poses an issue, since he's still and unfortunately seen without the headband even when facing Freeza according to Movie 1, which implies the events of planet Meat didn't happen.

It's preferrable to come up with an entirely new situation for Bardock's friends' demise and him getting the headband.

[BWri]

Bardock was perfect in his home special— no-name mook whose only cosmic importance was that his son was the main character of the series, who was cursed with the knowledge of his death (which was very much justified) at the hands of a much greater evil and was powerless to stop it. Just about everything done with him since has been to the total detriment of his character and the series as a whole.

Imagine an alternate timeline story where Tolkien made a short about a random ugly vicious orc who realizes Sauron is actually going to fuck everything up and tries to destroy the Ring, but is doomed to fail and yet still makes the attempt.
Then imagine that just about every bit of new material gradually whitewashes that orc into one of the greatest unsung heroes of Middle Earth, a good orc who just wanted to do something good for once and cared in a time when no one else did. And also the Chosen One before the Chosen One, and the only orc who had actual pride in his people, and a legendary fighting orc who never really dies but instead travels through time battling new opponents.

That's Bardock.

On top of Bardock’s character I don’t like Toriyama going full Superman and having Goku get Moses’d by his parents. The angle that Goku was meant to conquer earth was a lot more interesting.

This combo kills much of the mystique for both of these characters for me.

And if we're talking about killing mystique, having Beerus be the one to tell Frieza to kill the Saiyans is a huge blow to Frieza's character and worse than that, it's done nothing for Beerus. I think this one is legit the worst because it undermines the source material while not adding anything.

[Peach]

In my mind, most things in that special did happen. The only thing that changed was how Goku left, this time with his father loving him and saying goodbye.

As much as I also want for most of the things of the TV Special to happen in some way, we have to deal with time constraints.

From the moment Bardock arrives on Vegeta until its destruction, there is a one-month timeskip. You would have to cram, somehow, the events of planet Meat if you want Bardock's friends to die and for him to get the headband in that short window. I know this is fiction, but I still think it's impossible for Bardock to travel to a (probably distant) planet and return within a month.

Placing the TV Special before Dragon Ball Minus also poses an issue, since he's still and unfortunately seen without the headband even when facing Freeza according to Movie 1, which implies the events of planet Meat didn't happen.

It's preferrable to come up with an entirely new situation for Bardock's friends' demise and him getting the headband.

Let's remove Planet Meat and the Psychic Powers from the equation then. Maybe there was a conflict on Planet Vegeta or Bardock & his crew were about to defy Frieza & leave the planet, prompting Dodoria to be sent down - to kill Bardock's squad. Bardock realizes what Frieza intends to do after nearly being killed and tries warning the Saiyans - who don't listen. Somewhere along the way in the story, Bardock sends his son off world, with Gine. And it all culminates with the Bardock trying to stop Frieza and dying. No psychic powers. Just a man with good intuition who saw the indicators.

I'm okay with imagining a story like that happening. Clearly, something happened between Minus and the Destruction of Vegeta that we saw in the Broly movie. I like to think as much of the Bardock special happened as possible, although on a different location than Meat in some parts. Kind of like how Bulma's birthday party happened at her home and on a cruise ship, with things changed here and there.

[ABED]

It is a retcon. And a stupid one too.

I meant it's not a retcon when Vegetto defused inside Buu.

[SupremeKai25]

It is a retcon. And a stupid one too.

I meant it's not a retcon when Vegetto defused inside Buu.

Then you are also willing to admit that Super didn't change how the Potara works, I take it, since you acknowledge that the old Supreme Kai didn't know everything?

[MasenkoHA]

It is a retcon. And a stupid one too.

I meant it's not a retcon when Vegetto defused inside Buu.

Then you are also willing to admit that Super didn't change how the Potara works, I take it, since you acknowledge that the old Supreme Kai didn't know everything?

It did though. There’s a big difference between “These earrings are permanent but nobody accounted for getting eaten by a magic genie bubble gum demon which undid their effects” and “Old Kaioshin doesn’t know shit these earrings do have a time limit for mortals”


And it’s pretty clear Toriyama was going to have to something happen to undo the earrings magic when he had Old Kaioshin state they were permanent. He wasn’t going to leave Goku and Vegeta unfused.


It’s also pretty clear the “actually its only 30 minutes for mortals” thing in Super was done just to bring Vegetto back for fan service.

[SupremeKai25]

I meant it's not a retcon when Vegetto defused inside Buu.

Then you are also willing to admit that Super didn't change how the Potara works, I take it, since you acknowledge that the old Supreme Kai didn't know everything?

It did though. There’s a big difference between “These earrings are permanent but nobody accounted for getting eaten by a magic genie bubble gum demon which undid their effects” and “Old Kaioshin doesn’t know shit these earrings do have a time limit for mortals”


And it’s pretty clear Toriyama was going to have to something happen to undo the earrings magic when he had Old Kaioshin state they were permanent. He wasn’t going to leave Goku and Vegeta unfused.


It’s also pretty clear the “actually its only 30 minutes for mortals” thing in Super was done just to bring Vegetto back for fan service.

It is not stated anywhere in the manga that it was Buu's magic that caused them to defuse, this was stated in a databook. So before that databook, Vegito defusing was left unexplained. And if you haven't gone out of your way to read a databook (which most people probably haven't), then you will never have an explanation for why Vegito defused inside Buu.

Super never brings up the databook explanation that they defused because of Buu's body, Goku simply asked Gowasu why they defused when it was supposed to be permanent.

You're overestimating how well Toriyama planned this, why did he not give the explanation in the actual manga then? At least Super tried to explain that the Potara fusion was always temporary on mortals (and thus we have to assume that the old Supreme Kai, who was sealed inside a sword for eons, simply wasn't aware of this specific property, or simply assumed the same applied to both Gods and mortals).

I cannot see any problem with the Super explanation. Old Kai might be old and wise but he is not omniscient, and so he mistakenly assumed that the same properties apply to both mortals and Gods (it's intuitive to assume this), when in reality they don't.

[Aim]

New Burdack is good, I actually really like him. I like how he actually cares about his children. Amazing.

I think keeping it in line with the manga he could have changed his clothing though at the time of his demise for DBS.

Other than that, worst retcon I would say is… recently the whole SSGSS thing from before has grown on me. I really like the idea of SSGSS becoming the new Super Saiyan, something they can’t switch between (presumed) since they are now are using god ki. Now there’s no Saiyan Beyond God. I used to hate that, but it actually just simplifies things, no 7 transformations, just base, Blue and UI/UE. Nice and simple.

[MasenkoHA]

It is not stated anywhere in the manga that it was Buu's magic that caused them to defuse, this was stated in a databook. So before that databook, Vegito defusing was left unexplained. And if you haven't gone out of your way to read a databook (which most people probably haven't), then you will never have an explanation for why Vegito defused inside Buu.

You don’t need a databook to determine what’s given to you on page.

“The fusion is permanent”

*Gets eaten by Boo*

*Fusion is undone*

You're overestimating how well Toriyama planned this,

No. You’re just doing your normal “Everything in Super is superior to the original manga” schtick. At worst, Toriyama could have done a better job explaining why being inside a bubblegum genie devil would undo magic that was intended to be forever. Toriyama obviously didn’t think too hard about the semantics of how being inside Boo would negate the power of the potara earrings but thinking he was going to keep Vegetto as is forever and just decided to undo it at the last second is really dumb. He was always going to unfuse them.

I cannot see any problem with the Super explanation. Old Kai might be old and wise but he is not omniscient, and so he mistakenly assumed that the same properties apply to both mortals and Gods (it's intuitive to assume this), when in reality they don't.

That’s not the point though. The point is what happened in Dragon Ball was not a retcon. Gowasu’s explanation is a retcon. You can prefer the explanation of the latter but it is still a retcon.

[Saiya6Cit]

the retcon of end of DBZ, cause Bra was older than Pan but in the battle of the god made videl pregnant and bulma gives birth until super.

the retcon of Goku's age when he is send to earth in DB Minus.


***BTW About the potara defusing inside majin it makes sense from a biological point of view: when we digest something we decompose it. This is breaking complex molecules into more simple ones, to favor food assimilation, so it makes sense to me.

[jjgp1112]

the retcon of end of DBZ, cause Bra was older than Pan but in the battle of the god made videl pregnant and bulma gives birth until super.

the retcon of Goku's age when he is send to earth in DB Minus.


***BTW About the potara defusing inside majin it makes sense from a biological point of view: when we digest something we decompose it. This is breaking complex molecules into more simple ones, to favor food assimilation, so it makes sense to me.

That's an anime thing, being that they showed Goku as an infant in the flashbacks. Manga never specified his age

[coola]

Copy/paste from "Things you wish Toriyama never said"

- Tenshinhan is alien ancestor, thats why he have third eye - Dragon Ball world is completely different from ours, there was no need for such explanation, plus, it made me feel like jab at human fighters (It was before Tenshinhan pathetic return in Super )
- Goku have elements of "poison". I always liked Goku as little childish and naive, but ready to take action when bad guy hurt his friends. I dont like Goku being jerk who love fighting even if it means to sacrifice everyone, and i feel like thats image of Goku Toriyama have, and i dont like it
- Goku Superman-esque origin
- 28 planets with intelligent life

[PurestEvil]

The only gripe I have is Bardock in DB-, but I personally don't consider that as a proper retcon.

Copy/paste from "Things you wish Toriyama never said"

- Tenshinhan is alien ancestor, thats why he have third eye - Dragon Ball world is completely different from ours, there was no need for such explanation, plus, it made me feel like jab at human fighters (It was before Tenshinhan pathetic return in Super )
- Goku have elements of "poison". I always liked Goku as little childish and naive, but ready to take action when bad guy hurt his friends. I dont like Goku being jerk who love fighting even if it means to sacrifice everyone, and i feel like thats image of Goku Toriyama have, and i dont like it
- Goku Superman-esque origin
- 28 planets with intelligent life

Thank God for "Death of the Author", then

[Grimlock]

Clearly, something happened between Minus and the Destruction of Vegeta that we saw in the Broly movie

Yeah, I also think something happened during that one month. Something had to happen. Because Bardock seemingly knew the exact day and time Freeza would attack Vegeta (and thank Dende he knew, otherwise he wouldn't have rebelled). The bad thing is that I don't think we will ever see/know what truly unfolded during that gap, though...

Now there’s no Saiyan Beyond God. I used to hate that, but it actually just simplifies things, no 7 transformations,

I think the lack of Saiyan beyond God actually complicates things. In a scenario where Goku and Vegeta can't switch to regular Ki anymore, Saiyan beyond God would be a permanent state and whenever they transform into Super Saiyan, it would be Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Or even in the scenario where they can switch between regular and god Ki, Saiyan beyond God still renders the Super Saiyan God transformation useless, which would be the more appropriate scenario instead of what we got.

Also, Saiyan beyond God is not a transformation. It doesn't change one's appearance.

[Koitsukai]

- Goku being an asian Kal-El.
What else can I say that hasn't been said a million times? Goku being a conqueror that hit his head and forgot his mission was great, funny and ironical.

- Potara fusion.
It rendered Potara useless and took away its unique characteristic: being forever. The ultimate last resort... but it wasn't even treated as seriously as it should've been by the characters involved(Vegeta was more upset by Goku hiding SS3 from him than actually being fused with fucking Goku for the rest of his life), so no wonder they just scratched that.
The worse thing is that now the potara cannot even be used because they defuse instantly when going all out, while a stronger Gogeta Blue can spam ki attacks all over the place and still keep going. The retcon made the ultimate trump card(because no timelimit) into a useless gimmick that should never be used again, just shunkanido out of there (Vegeta can do it too, now lol) and dance it out, it'll last longer and you'll be able to go all out.

- Beerus telling Freeza to wipe out the saiyans.
Why? it served no purpose at all, and it was revealed in this arc, and it was only for Beerus to make Vegeta mad while training him... and it wasn't even a KEY element to Vegeta's training, so... really, why? it didn't even rile him up that much and was just to make him attack Beerus. His relationship with Beerus is even closer now, that revelation served no purpose. Just some philosophical implication of destiny and fate that means shit.

- Base Beyond God (or super strong base forms).
It was a neat concept, and was dropped immediately. It made RoF look like something that has to be overlooked. I'm fine with the blond forms still being around, my gripe is having to pretend RoF happened differently, maybe if they said it was a temporary boost or something, but it was never addressed again.

- The Legendary SS.
While it's not a retcon because it was never officialy addressed, it's weird that the legendary SS ended up being so fucking strong, like Broly's FP is Jiren-Prime Moro level, without no training at all... I understand the legend being about somebody so strong, but put Broly in Z and his base form already is enough for him to hardly exert himself and wipe out Buuhan, no need for the SS, just the legendary saiyan. The legend is OP as fuck, there was no way anybody could do anything about him... now that would explain why Beerus wanted the saiyans gone... but nope.

--

Retcons I actually like:
- Z sword and Beerus. That one I kinda liked. Beerus doing something so the Kaioshin won't get killed... specially when he got fused with a witch against his will... the guy wasn't that reliable. It makes sense. The only problem is that the geezer said that who trapped him was scary but not as scary as Buu or something like that... I don't remember if he mentioned something about their power.

[Alruneia]

The only gripe I have is Bardock in DB-, but I personally don't consider that as a proper retcon.

Copy/paste from "Things you wish Toriyama never said"

- Tenshinhan is alien ancestor, thats why he have third eye - Dragon Ball world is completely different from ours, there was no need for such explanation, plus, it made me feel like jab at human fighters (It was before Tenshinhan pathetic return in Super )
- Goku have elements of "poison". I always liked Goku as little childish and naive, but ready to take action when bad guy hurt his friends. I dont like Goku being jerk who love fighting even if it means to sacrifice everyone, and i feel like thats image of Goku Toriyama have, and i dont like it
- Goku Superman-esque origin
- 28 planets with intelligent life

Thank God for "Death of the Author", then

Kind of. Death of the Author doesn't work quite right when the author is still making new content for the series, because the author still has the power to write those things into the story.
...Can we come up with a term like "The Author Says a Lot of Things"? Because there's plenty of interview content and trivia and stuff out there that Toriyama did say at one point, but it's either never brought up again, contradicting other statements or contradicts what's actually in the work, or overwritten at a later point. I'm sure a lot of that stuff was just something Toriyama came up with on the spot when asked, he didn't think about it beforehand, and he's not necessarily considering it to be true after the fact. So until those statements have an impact on the actual continuing story, maybe we should be taking them with a grain of salt, because The Author Says a Lot of Things. I dunno, seems like a useful phrase when it comes to ongoing stories.
-
To the main topic, I definitely don't like Goku's origin story being changed up very much. There's something poetic that gets lost when "Goku was sent to conquer/destroy the Earth but became its hero" is turned into "Goku was sent to Earth so that he'd survive Planet Vegeta's destruction". I know this has already been mentioned plenty of times in the thread, but it is the first, biggest thing that comes to mind.

[dva_raza]

I definitely don't like Goku's origin story being changed up very much. There's something poetic that gets lost when "Goku was sent to conquer/destroy the Earth but became its hero" is turned into "Goku was sent to Earth so that he'd survive Planet Vegeta's destruction".

But is this actually a retcon?

Raditz saying Goku was supposed to be conquering earth, I saw that as him simply not knowing that Gine and Bardock had sent Goku to earth to save him

[Alruneia]

I definitely don't like Goku's origin story being changed up very much. There's something poetic that gets lost when "Goku was sent to conquer/destroy the Earth but became its hero" is turned into "Goku was sent to Earth so that he'd survive Planet Vegeta's destruction".

But is this actually a retcon?

Raditz saying Goku was supposed to be conquering earth, I saw that as him simply not knowing that Gine and Bardock had sent Goku to earth to save him

Sure. The -con in retcon doesn't stand for contradiction, after all. A retcon is just new information that wasn't initially intended which puts previously established information in a new perspective. What Raditz said about Goku's origin was surely not intended to be wrong from the start, otherwise I think that would've been shown earlier than in Dragon Ball Minus. So it's definitely a retcon, the things we've been shown relating to Bardock in Minus and Super have put old info in a new perspective which wasn't initially intended. And in this case, several people in this thread, me included, don't like that new perspective as much as the initial one.

[ABED]

Retcons don't have anything to do with putting things in a new perspective. That's a reveal.

"Oh, that gentleman is being helpful"
"Oh wait, he's the killer! He wasn't being a helpful neighbor, he was getting information from her."

Retcons are about selectively changing continuity and acting like that information was always true.

[dva_raza]

I definitely don't like Goku's origin story being changed up very much. There's something poetic that gets lost when "Goku was sent to conquer/destroy the Earth but became its hero" is turned into "Goku was sent to Earth so that he'd survive Planet Vegeta's destruction".

But is this actually a retcon?

Raditz saying Goku was supposed to be conquering earth, I saw that as him simply not knowing that Gine and Bardock had sent Goku to earth to save him

Sure. The -con in retcon doesn't stand for contradiction, after all. A retcon is just new information that wasn't initially intended which puts previously established information in a new perspective. What Raditz said about Goku's origin was surely not intended to be wrong from the start, otherwise I think that would've been shown earlier than in Dragon Ball Minus. So it's definitely a retcon, the things we've been shown relating to Bardock in Minus and Super have put old info in a new perspective which wasn't initially intended. And in this case, several people in this thread, me included, don't like that new perspective as much as the initial one.

Oh, I just checked the definition and you're right. I totally had the wrong idea of what retcon meant lol
I thought it did mean something that is basically a contradiction.

Anyway I actually like this new perspective. The thing with Goku failing to do his conquering mission just because he hit his head sound a bit too convenient to me and even kinda dumb.
I think the scene in the Broly movie where his parents send him off to earth gives a little twist and a more powerful meaning to the whole thing and to Goku as a character