Do you like Super?

[Kendamu]

If one needs to switch their brains of and not think to enjoy DBS anime, that means it isn't good.

I don't know if that's really an objective measure or not, but if it is then I guess stuff doesn't need to be good for me to enjoy it.

[super michael]

If one needs to switch their brains of and not think to enjoy DBS anime, that means it isn't good.

I don't know if that's really an objective measure or not, but if it is then I guess stuff doesn't need to be good for me to enjoy it.

The thing is the only way to not see any problem in DBS is by not thinking.

Toei did a lousy job in writing DBS.
Sometimes people make excuse like "You grew up with Superman Goku", just to defend DBS flaws, ignoring said person might have watched multiple languages and even the original language. Maybe even read the manga.


When certain characters appeared, it was predictable what would happen, what they would do or say.
In Goku case he was a clown an example. Buu was asleep alway.

[ABED]

That isn't the point I'm making. Stories aren't bad if you "have to turn your brain off". DB has never been highbrow or even middle brow. Power scaling and lore and things like that don't matter. It's not what storytelling is about. It's about catharsis, not consistency of information.

There are substantive reasons why Super doesn't work. If you don't like it, fine. You're welcome to that opinion, but can we please stop acting like it's objective fact?

Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z had these things great:

- Gags
- Character development
- Battles
- Story writing
- World building and expanding

Becoming fans of many characters in DB/DBZ was easy. They even combined gags and battle in creative ways, which made it enjoyable.


DBS fails when it comes to gags. They fail at developing character and instead makes them worse.
They can't combine gag and battle into one thing.

So objectively DBS Anime is inferior compared to DB/DBZ.

DBS was predictable, when a character appeared it was easy to predict what would happen.

As for DBS Super Heroes did they really have to make Goku completely dumb in the movie, not showing he was smart in anyway? The good thing is it was only one small section of the movie, but Goku never acted smart there.
Luckily the movie was good.

This is a misues of the term "objectively". Sorry, but that's not how art works. Art is inherently subjective.

The thing is the only way to not see any problem in DBS is by not thinking.

This is either a misunderstanding or a strawman. Who is claiming Super doesn't have problems? There are issues, but most of them boil down to continuing a series after it had reached its end. And yet, I still enjoy it. It's a fun way to spend a few hours. We see issues with the original story but we're fans bc the good outweighs the bad based on our preferences and opinions.

[Zephyr]

Boo being asleep always is funny. Goku being a clown is funny. People who don't agree with this are objectively wrong and are simply not thinking.

[Majin Buu]

If one needs to switch their brains of and not think to enjoy DBS anime, that means it isn't good.

Someone that doesn't like Dragon Ball period could easily say the same thing about the entire franchise (and probably has). This isn't a good metric to gage a work's quality.

Good works have flaws too, and you are effectively "turning your brain off" when you choose to not let those flaws color your overall perception of the work.

[Skar]

I liked the more original ideas like Beerus, Whis, Hit, and UI. There are some ideas and types of fan service that I kinda preferred didn't become official since the execution didn't seem much different from where I originally seen them. I think the only one I did like that I've seen before in fanfiction is an alternate good guy Broly .

[Kendamu]

If one needs to switch their brains of and not think to enjoy DBS anime, that means it isn't good.

I don't know if that's really an objective measure or not, but if it is then I guess stuff doesn't need to be good for me to enjoy it.

The thing is the only way to not see any problem in DBS is by not thinking.

Well, that's just how I enjoy Kung Fu stories in general. Also, people find big glaring problems with DB and DBZ all the time. Some of us just go, "Yeah, that's true I guess," and go back to enjoying it regardless.

[super michael]

That isn't the point I'm making. Stories aren't bad if you "have to turn your brain off". DB has never been highbrow or even middle brow. Power scaling and lore and things like that don't matter. It's not what storytelling is about. It's about catharsis, not consistency of information.

There are substantive reasons why Super doesn't work. If you don't like it, fine. You're welcome to that opinion, but can we please stop acting like it's objective fact?

Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z had these things great:

- Gags
- Character development
- Battles
- Story writing
- World building and expanding

Becoming fans of many characters in DB/DBZ was easy. They even combined gags and battle in creative ways, which made it enjoyable.


DBS fails when it comes to gags. They fail at developing character and instead makes them worse.
They can't combine gag and battle into one thing.

So objectively DBS Anime is inferior compared to DB/DBZ.

DBS was predictable, when a character appeared it was easy to predict what would happen.

As for DBS Super Heroes did they really have to make Goku completely dumb in the movie, not showing he was smart in anyway? The good thing is it was only one small section of the movie, but Goku never acted smart there.
Luckily the movie was good.

This is a misues of the term "objectively". Sorry, but that's not how art works. Art is inherently subjective.

The thing is the only way to not see any problem in DBS is by not thinking.

This is either a misunderstanding or a strawman. Who is claiming Super doesn't have problems? There are issues, but most of them boil down to continuing a series after it had reached its end. And yet, I still enjoy it. It's a fun way to spend a few hours. We see issues with the original story but we're fans bc the good outweighs the bad based on our preferences and opinions.

How is it subjective when someone says DBS is inferior compared to DB/DBZ with all the evidence out there?

There are people that thinks DBS has the same problem as DB/DBZ, even though that isn't true.
Some anime can continue without any problem, while some has trouble and has issues. DBS is one of those that just has a lot of problems.
It is good that you enjoyed DBS and you acknowledge that DBS has its issues, so it isn't like you ignore them. However you see the positive outweighs the negatives.

As for me there was many times it was enjoyable, however there was many times it was annoying. I want to like DBS, like how I like DB/DBZ, but I find that hard. For me I see the negative outweighs the positive.


I am aware DB/DBZ/DBS Manga are not perfect, however the positive is greater than the negative in my opinion.

[super michael]

Boo being asleep always is funny. Goku being a clown is funny. People who don't agree with this are objectively wrong and are simply not thinking.

This is a fighting anime, not a anime about seeing and hearing Buu sleep.
Same with Goten and Trunks constantly being mentioned or showing up, only to be told no, to go away or keeping secrets.

Goku didn't constantly do stupid things in DBZ and say stupid things. That is a huge downgrade to his character.


As I have said I am aware DB/DBZ/DBS Manga isn't perfect, they have their issues. But the numbers of issues are less than DBS anime.

[ClutchBangstrip]

Dragon Ball was always a cash-grab, so I'm not seeing a difference here, especially when you want to compare it to Star Wars and Marvel of all things.

If it's always been a cash-grab, so has everything else successful.

Like other mega-franchises, it's become too obvious. BoG was an honest attempt, but now everything after's in question. Mind you, I enjoy 75% of it. It's possible to prioritize profit over product and still not make it obvious. That was the case up until recently.

The games alone are making more than most anime franchises and it's probably why we haven't gotten another anime and are dealing with a retelling of a film in the barely promoted manga. The fact that it's bigger than One Piece's despite OP's push on top of DB not prioritizing it's primary mediums is a problem.

[MasenkoHA]

Goku didn't constantly do stupid things in DBZ and say stupid things. That is a huge downgrade to his character.
.

Sticks a dragon ball on his toddler's head, even though that would make him a target for any evil doers who want the dragon balls (a plot point in the first Z movie even!)

Let's Freeza power up to 100 percent

Vetos Bulma's suggestion at stopping Gero before he creates the Androids and argued he hasn't done anything wrong yet which is provabably false

Sends his would be scholar son to fight because he never bothered to find out Gohan doesn't love fighting

Didn't turn Super Saiyan 3 to stop Majin Vegeta ahead of time to prevent Boo's awakening

Didn't destroy Majin Boo when he had the chance so the 2nd graders could have a chance.



Sure most of these fall under "Goku lives for combat" but they're all examples of Dragon Ball Z Goku doing stupid things.

The big difference between Z and Super is Z is way more serious so there's less reason to portray Goku as an idiot because Toriyama is focused on making Fist of the North Star

[jjgp1112]

Gokus was so removed from most of Z's plot that he didn't really get a chance to act goofy and stupid anyway. And yet whenever he was in the driver's seat...he usually did something reckless and dumb.

Where I do think Super fucked up though is making Goku dumb and careless even in the context of fighting, which the original series, especially pre-Z always firmly established as NOT the case. IIRC the Tournament of Power mitigated this but stuff like the entire thesis of Resurrection F flies in the face of Goku giving Frieza that exact warning on Namek. And it's be one thing if the point was that Gokus become so comfortable that his instincts are slipping, but they never take that angle.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z had these things great:

- Gags
- Character development
- Battles
- Story writing
- World building and expanding

Becoming fans of many characters in DB/DBZ was easy. They even combined gags and battle in creative ways, which made it enjoyable.


DBS fails when it comes to gags. They fail at developing character and instead makes them worse.
They can't combine gag and battle into one thing.

So objectively DBS Anime is inferior compared to DB/DBZ.

DBS was predictable, when a character appeared it was easy to predict what would happen.

As for DBS Super Heroes did they really have to make Goku completely dumb in the movie, not showing he was smart in anyway? The good thing is it was only one small section of the movie, but Goku never acted smart there.
Luckily the movie was good.

This is a misues of the term "objectively". Sorry, but that's not how art works. Art is inherently subjective.

The thing is the only way to not see any problem in DBS is by not thinking.

This is either a misunderstanding or a strawman. Who is claiming Super doesn't have problems? There are issues, but most of them boil down to continuing a series after it had reached its end. And yet, I still enjoy it. It's a fun way to spend a few hours. We see issues with the original story but we're fans bc the good outweighs the bad based on our preferences and opinions.

How is it subjective when someone says DBS is inferior compared to DB/DBZ with all the evidence out there?

There are people that thinks DBS has the same problem as DB/DBZ, even though that isn't true.
Some anime can continue without any problem, while some has trouble and has issues. DBS is one of those that just has a lot of problems.
It is good that you enjoyed DBS and you acknowledge that DBS has its issues, so it isn't like you ignore them. However you see the positive outweighs the negatives.

As for me there was many times it was enjoyable, however there was many times it was annoying. I want to like DBS, like how I like DB/DBZ, but I find that hard. For me I see the negative outweighs the positive.


I am aware DB/DBZ/DBS Manga are not perfect, however the positive is greater than the negative in my opinion.

There is plenty of evidence that Dragon Ball Super (2015 animated series) is better than Dragon Ball (1986 animated series) and Dragon Ball Z. In large part, there's Kale, Caulifla and Ribrianne, all of whom were clearly beloved by the staff of the animated series, given how much focus was given to them actually kicking ass and having character arcs.

Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, meanwhile, stick pathetically close to the interpretation of female characters like Chi-Chi, Blooma, Videl, #18, et all, found in Dragon Ball (1984 comic). The depiction of women in a respectful and well-written manner in media is paramount among the number of things that make for good fictional media. As a result, with Dragon Ball Super (2015) doing marginally better by actually creating some cool female characters, I would absolutely say that it's better than Dragon Ball (1984 comic), Dragon Ball (1986 animated series) and Dragon Ball Z (1989).


Now, I'm afraid this might come across as condescending and I just want to acknowledge that because I still think the point I am about to make is a valid one and I apologize if my wording comes across as anything but kind: you need to be be well-aware that some of us have been doing the "discuss hobbies online" thing for a long, long, long time. In fact, I've been doing it for twenty-five years (25), seventeen (17) years of which occured on this website, and Kendamu has been doing it even longer. After a while one begins to understand that getting upset about minor things, when one could be focusing on the things that one does like about their special interest instead, gets exhausting.

Sometimes the best approach to discussing art is a flexible one. Declaring Dragon Ball Super (2015) wholesale bad is, well, bad. I could go on-and-on about all of the little and big changes I would make to the series—hell, I have an entire document dedicated to how I would have written the series—but that's really not going to change the fact that comparing Dragon Ball Super to previous anime is a bad idea because those previous anime could use just as many simple, easy-to-make changes.

Dragon Ball was always a cash-grab, so I'm not seeing a difference here, especially when you want to compare it to Star Wars and Marvel of all things.

If it's always been a cash-grab, so has everything else successful.

Like other mega-franchises, it's become too obvious. BoG was an honest attempt, but now everything after's in question. Mind you, I've enjoy 75% of it. It's possible to prioritize profit over product and still not make it seem obvious. That was the case up until recently.

The games alone are making more than most anime franchises and it's probably why we haven't gotten another anime and are dealing with a retelling of a film in the barely promoted manga.

Yeah, I agree. Commercial art is a cash grab. Commercial art can also be good, but Dragon Ball (entire franchise and the 1984 comic series specifically) has a ton of easy to fix flaws that a good writer and/or editor should've caught, not exasperated and pushed even further.

[ABED]

Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z had these things great:

- Gags
- Character development
- Battles
- Story writing
- World building and expanding

Becoming fans of many characters in DB/DBZ was easy. They even combined gags and battle in creative ways, which made it enjoyable.


DBS fails when it comes to gags. They fail at developing character and instead makes them worse.
They can't combine gag and battle into one thing.

So objectively DBS Anime is inferior compared to DB/DBZ.

DBS was predictable, when a character appeared it was easy to predict what would happen.

As for DBS Super Heroes did they really have to make Goku completely dumb in the movie, not showing he was smart in anyway? The good thing is it was only one small section of the movie, but Goku never acted smart there.
Luckily the movie was good.

This is a misues of the term "objectively". Sorry, but that's not how art works. Art is inherently subjective.

The thing is the only way to not see any problem in DBS is by not thinking.

This is either a misunderstanding or a strawman. Who is claiming Super doesn't have problems? There are issues, but most of them boil down to continuing a series after it had reached its end. And yet, I still enjoy it. It's a fun way to spend a few hours. We see issues with the original story but we're fans bc the good outweighs the bad based on our preferences and opinions.

How is it subjective when someone says DBS is inferior compared to DB/DBZ with all the evidence out there?

Because it's a matter of opinion. Nothing in art criticism is objective. Whether something is better or worse doesn't exist independent of audience.

To those talking about any of DB being a "cash grab", it's a non-criticism.

[super michael]

Goku didn't constantly do stupid things in DBZ and say stupid things. That is a huge downgrade to his character.
.

Sticks a dragon ball on his toddler's head, even though that would make him a target for any evil doers who want the dragon balls (a plot point in the first Z movie even!)

Let's Freeza power up to 100 percent

Vetos Bulma's suggestion at stopping Gero before he creates the Androids and argued he hasn't done anything wrong yet which is provabably false

Sends his would be scholar son to fight because he never bothered to find out Gohan doesn't love fighting

Didn't turn Super Saiyan 3 to stop Majin Vegeta ahead of time to prevent Boo's awakening

Didn't destroy Majin Boo when he had the chance so the 2nd graders could have a chance.



Sure most of these fall under "Goku lives for combat" but they're all examples of Dragon Ball Z Goku doing stupid things.

The big difference between Z and Super is Z is way more serious so there's less reason to portray Goku as an idiot because Toriyama is focused on making Fist of the North Star

I agree 100% giving Gohan the Dragon Ball as a hat was dumb, since Goku known and unknown enemies can target him.
This is the first time seeing someone mention this.

Goku wanted to avenge Kururin and make him swallow his pride by losing to Saiyan no less. Goku had his reason here.

I 100% agree with you there. Even if Goku didn't want to kill Dr Gero because he didn't do anything wrong. He could still learn the location incase it does happen. Maybe even destroy his creations, before they become a problem.

Gohan was the strongest in the Cell Game, who surpass even Goku himself. Only Gohan had the power and potential to kill Cell. Plus Gohan never mentioned he doesn't like to fight and never showed in the past to anyone including Goku. Goku wasn't at fault here.
Piccolo knew since he heard it, thanks to his super hearing.

Goku wanted to use his SSJ3 as a emergency, he gave his reason why he didn't use it against Majin Vegeta. He knew he would lose time on earth, however he didn't know how much time he would lose. He knew that he would get tired after using that transformation. So there was reasons for his decision.

Goku gave his reason why, even if he destroys Buu best case scenario. The earth would have no one to defend it, when another villain appears. Goku, Vegeta and Gohan were dead or assumed dead. That is the reason why Goku wanted to teach Goten and Trunks, so they can protect the earth if the time comes.
Seeing how more enemies appeared after the Buu Saga, Goku was correct in his choice.



The worst one was destroying the Potara. Sure Vegeta was going to destroy his Potara, but that doesn't make it less dumb that Goku destroyed his. Goku reason for his pride wasn't a good reason at all.

[ClutchBangstrip]

Yeah, I agree. Commercial art is a cash grab. Commercial art can also be good, but Dragon Ball (entire franchise and the 1984 comic series specifically) has a ton of easy to fix flaws that a good writer and/or editor should've caught, not exasperated and pushed even further.

I actually don't have a problem with the writing or the story. My issue is the art and animation of the anime and the pure lack of "canon" content.

The manga's art is excellent, but too much of Super's anime art and animation doesn't make it seem like a billion $ franchise. The fact that they can take these extreme breaks without advancing any form of the plot is my issue. The manga skips Broly, but doesn't skip Super Hero? It makes no sense? Everything is just random.

Cell Max was defeated a year ago. What's next?

[MasenkoHA]

Goku wanted to avenge Kururin and make him swallow his pride by losing to Saiyan no less. Goku had his reason here.

He could have avenged Krillin by killing Freeza before he powered to 100 percent.

His reason was testing his strength as Super Saiyan even though he was risking losing to Freeza. He was being an idiot.

I 100% agree with you there. Even if Goku didn't want to kill Dr Gero because he didn't do anything wrong. He could still learn the location incase it does happen. Maybe even destroy his creations, before they become a problem.

Gero built weapons for the Red Ribbon Army who were trying to take over the world (as far as they knew) and killed civilians to get the Dragon balls. He had already done wrong.

Gohan was the strongest in the Cell Game, who surpass even Goku himself. Only Gohan had the power and potential to kill Cell. Plus Gohan never mentioned he doesn't like to fight and never showed in the past to anyone including Goku. Goku wasn't at fault here.
Piccolo knew since he heard it, thanks to his super hearing.

No, Piccolo didn't have to use super hearing he was just more perceptive of who Gohan was. Because Piccolo isn't an idiot.

If we're counting anime material (which we seem to be since your problem is with the Super anime specifically) Goku could have defeated Perfect Cell by borrowing the ki of the others and Miracle Punching Cell's lights out no need to throw his nerd son out in the ring


To be clear these aren't criticisms of Dragon Ball Z or Goku's character, I'm just pointing out he's always been an idiot.

[super michael]

He could have avenged Krillin by killing Freeza before he powered to 100 percent.

His reason was testing his strength as Super Saiyan even though he was risking losing to Freeza. He was being an idiot.

You are correct, however Goku wanted Freeza to swallow his pride and to lose to a Saiyan. Goku had 3 goals:

Wanted to fight the strongest fighter in the universe at that point.
Avenge Kuririn, which you are correct could have killed him at any point. Didn't need to reach 100% power.
Wanted Freeza to swallow his pride and lose to a Saiyan.

Gero built weapons for the Red Ribbon Army who were trying to take over the world (as far as they knew) and killed civilians to get the Dragon balls. He had already done wrong.

I agree with you there 100%.

No, Piccolo didn't have to use super hearing he was just more perceptive of who Gohan was. Because Piccolo isn't an idiot.

If we're counting anime material (which we seem to be since your problem is with the Super anime specifically) Goku could have defeated Perfect Cell by borrowing the ki of the others and Miracle Punching Cell's lights out no need to throw his nerd son out in the ring

Everyone was wondering what Gohan and Cell were talking about, while we see Piccolo move his ears. This means Piccolo heard it all.
It is like how Piccolo heard the conversation between Goku and Future Trunks, while no one else could hear it.

When one talks about the anime, that means every episode counts. It doesn't matter if it is filler or canon, there is no cherry picking. However the movies don't apply when it comes to the anime. That Miracle Punch, Dragon Fist, borrowing ki, etc, only apply to the movies and not the anime.

To be clear these aren't criticisms of Dragon Ball Z or Goku's character, I'm just pointing out he's always been an idiot.

Goku has done dumb things, but my issue isn't that Goku does dumb things in DBS Anime. My issues is going overboard.
No one expect Goku to be perfect.

I am aware that Goku does dumb things and bad choices in DB/DBZ/DBS Manga and that is ok.

[jjgp1112]

Everyone was wondering what Gohan and Cell were talking about, while we see Piccolo move his ears. This means Piccolo heard it all.
It is like how Piccolo heard the conversation between Goku and Future Trunks, while no one else could hear it.

When one talks about the anime, that means every episode counts. It doesn't matter if it is filler or canon, there is no cherry picking. However the movies don't apply when it comes to the anime. That Miracle Punch, Dragon Fist, borrowing ki, etc, only apply to the movies and not the anime.

The first thing Gohan said to Piccolo all the way back was whining about how he doesn't want to fight and wants to be a scholar. A great deal of the Saiyan saga fight is Piccolo trying to get Gohan to overcome his fear of battle. And I dunno man, they spent 3 years training together for the Androids and that's ample time for Piccolo to get to know Gohan further. This, "He just heard him well" is a hogwash stretch.

[Zephyr]

This is a fighting anime, not a anime about seeing and hearing Buu sleep.
Same with Goten and Trunks constantly being mentioned or showing up, only to be told no, to go away or keeping secrets.

Goku didn't constantly do stupid things in DBZ and say stupid things. That is a huge downgrade to his character.

Dragon Ball is a manga/anime about fighting...written and drawn by a guy who trades in comedy. Jokes are par the course and laughs are meant to be had. Always have been, always will be. The part of Dragon Ball's story where Kondo was Toriyama's editor was definitely tonally more serious and less comedic than what came before or after, but that's fine. Dragon Ball changed over the course of its own original serialization, and Dragon Ball Super, a work made decades later, is a different work. A different work is allowed to do things differently.

Yeah, it uses Goku to make the audience laugh at a higher frequency than the original story did, but whether that's a "huge downgrade to his character" or not is a subjective matter, not an objective one. It's fine if that's not to your preference, but you gotta recognize that it's also fine if it is to other peoples' preference. And to be clear, I don't have a preference one way or the other on this matter. Goku in Super is funny to me, but if he was written exactly the way he was in the Boo arc that would have also been fine. I only care about if Goku is excited to fight strong guys, and is willing to make questionable and problematic calls in order to push and test his limits, because that's who he is and that's what makes him an interesting character to me. Super's anime gave me that Goku, without question.

As for Goten and Trunks, in the Boo arc they were kept in the dark on things until they were literally the final line of defense. And when they were used, they weren't able to get the job done. These are not reliable people. Or, at least, these are not people any of the adult characters have any good reason to think of as reliable. And, at no point in Super have they been the last line of defense, and thus necessary to call upon.