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He provides the earth with the DragonBalls, that's pretty useful I'd say. He also provides free Karate lessons so... that's a bonus I guess.ABED wrote:Then what good is Kami? What does he actually do?
Kami's existed prior to the DBs, and next to no one got lessons from him. Even Goku got the bulk of his training by Popo.Wibbs wrote:He provides the earth with the DragonBalls, that's pretty useful I'd say. He also provides free Karate lessons so... that's a bonus I guess.ABED wrote:Then what good is Kami? What does he actually do?
As for the Popo thing, I don't really think it would have been a good move to have some unexplained character come out of nowhere and completely wreck the.... vil... oh yeah, never mind.
Yeah you're right about that, it is kind of weird when I think about it. People go up there expecting training from Kami and get left with Popo. I suppose he does sometimes look down upon the Earth to check up on things like with Cell. He provides somewhat useful information in his own way.ABED wrote:Kami's existed prior to the DBs, and next to no one got lessons from him. Even Goku got the bulk of his training by Popo.Wibbs wrote:He provides the earth with the DragonBalls, that's pretty useful I'd say. He also provides free Karate lessons so... that's a bonus I guess.ABED wrote:Then what good is Kami? What does he actually do?
As for the Popo thing, I don't really think it would have been a good move to have some unexplained character come out of nowhere and completely wreck the.... vil... oh yeah, never mind.
Was that last part a reference to Trunks?
The best explanation for Kami I can guess is that he helps souls transition to the afterlife.Wibbs wrote:Yeah you're right about that, it is kind of weird when I think about it. People go up there expecting training from Kami and get left with Popo. I suppose he does sometimes look down upon the Earth to check up on things like with Cell. He provides somewhat useful information in his own way.ABED wrote: Kami's existed prior to the DBs, and next to no one got lessons from him. Even Goku got the bulk of his training by Popo.
Was that last part a reference to Trunks?
Yeah, that last part was kind of poking fun at Trunks.
Does he? I though that was only for Goku.ABED wrote:The best explanation for Kami I can guess is that he helps souls transition to the afterlife.Wibbs wrote:Yeah you're right about that, it is kind of weird when I think about it. People go up there expecting training from Kami and get left with Popo. I suppose he does sometimes look down upon the Earth to check up on things like with Cell. He provides somewhat useful information in his own way.ABED wrote: Kami's existed prior to the DBs, and next to no one got lessons from him. Even Goku got the bulk of his training by Popo.
Was that last part a reference to Trunks?
Yeah, that last part was kind of poking fun at Trunks.
As for Trunks, that's not the same. If Popo came down in the middle of the Piccolo Daimao arc and saved the world, that's deus ex machine. Freeza was no longer the main villain, it was a different arc.
I don't know, it was my best guess because otherwise that position is good for nothing. All we hear is that he does important things but we never see or hear what they are.Does he? I though that was only for Goku.
Ah, gotcha.I realise that, I have nothing against Trunks or his sudden appearance. I was having a bit of fun that's all.
That seems to conform with what my idea of what a God does, it would be nice if we got a little insight though. Maybe it's better that it's a mystery, keeping it vague is the less disappointing route to go.ABED wrote:I don't know, it was my best guess because otherwise that position is good for nothing. All we hear is that he does important things but we never see or hear what they are.Does he? I though that was only for Goku.
Ah, gotcha.I realise that, I have nothing against Trunks or his sudden appearance. I was having a bit of fun that's all.
Kaioshin is understandable. This isn't even his galaxy.Kamiccolo9 wrote:The same reason that Kaioshin never stopped Freeza, or that Goku spared Fat Buu. It wasn't his place.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Again with the knock against Goku, it was a retcon!RandomGuy96 wrote:Kaioshin is understandable. This isn't even his galaxy.Kamiccolo9 wrote:The same reason that Kaioshin never stopped Freeza, or that Goku spared Fat Buu. It wasn't his place.
But, like Goku, Kami's reasoning is total bullshit, because he was the one who created Daimao.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Prove that it was a retcon.ABED wrote:Again with the knock against Goku, it was a retcon!
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
It was a retcon, AT didn't think up SS3, so Goku was fighting to his utmost leading to the release of Buu, and then to fight Buu on a level playing field many chapters later, he creates another level of Super Saiyan. It doesn't fit Goku's character to do something like that and leave it for someone else to clean up. He's done dangerous things like letting Vegeta go, but he always intended to fight him. Same with Piccolo, but inexplicably he decides to create a mess and force others to clean it up?RandomGuy96 wrote:Again with the excuses for Goku, it wasn't a retcon. If it was, it was a completely unnecessary and pointless one that did nothing but paint Goku's character, as he didn't need to be stronger than fatso for the final stretch of the story to work.
But it isn't even about using the Mafuba or not using the Mafuba at the 23rd Budokai. If he COULD have used the Mafuba without dying then why not just use it when Piccolo was taking over the earth the other two times?Herms wrote:I'd assume the idea there is that he's not going to die from using the Mafuba, since he's so much stronger than Mutaito/Kame-sennin were.He tried that in the 23rd Budokai arc with the Mafuba though.
At any rate, he flat-out tells Goku when they first meet that gods can't commit suicide. So if the Mafuba really would have killed him then there's a bit of a plot hole there.
Kyle Broflovski wrote:It's all real. Think about it. Haven't Luke Skywalker and Santa Claus affected your lives more than most real people in this room? I mean, whether Jesus is real or not, he - he's had a bigger impact on the world than any of us have. And the same can be said for Bugs Bunny and - and Superman and Harry Potter. They've changed my life - changed the way I act on the earth. Doesn't that make them kind of real? They might be imaginary but, but they're more important than most of us here. And they're all gonna be around here long after we're dead. So, in a way, those things are more realer than any of us.
Maybe he only saw it once from Mutaito and couldn't figure out how to do it from just seeing it one time.RocktheDragon wrote:But it isn't even about using the Mafuba or not using the Mafuba at the 23rd Budokai. If he COULD have used the Mafuba without dying then why not just use it when Piccolo was taking over the earth the other two times?Herms wrote:I'd assume the idea there is that he's not going to die from using the Mafuba, since he's so much stronger than Mutaito/Kame-sennin were.He tried that in the 23rd Budokai arc with the Mafuba though.
At any rate, he flat-out tells Goku when they first meet that gods can't commit suicide. So if the Mafuba really would have killed him then there's a bit of a plot hole there.
Wouldn't it have taken a lot of practice though? Even seeing it twice wouldn't have made it any easier to learn. Then again that could just be like when Goku instantly learned the Kamehameha.ABED wrote:Maybe he only saw it once from Mutaito and couldn't figure out how to do it from just seeing it one time.
Goku's always been special in that way.Wibbs wrote:Wouldn't it have taken a lot of practice though? Even seeing it twice wouldn't have made it any easier to learn. Then again that could just be like when Goku instantly learned the Kamehameha.ABED wrote:Maybe he only saw it once from Mutaito and couldn't figure out how to do it from just seeing it one time.
SS3 premiered only a few chapters after Goku and Vegeta stopped fighting. There's no freaking way Toriyama is THAT unprepared. You've done nothing to prove it was a retcon, you just keep making things up to defend Goku. Even if it was, that doesn't change what is written in the story. The story and Toriyama by proxy intentionally and explicitly portrays Goku in this way, for no reason other than to characterize him.ABED wrote:It was a retcon, AT didn't think up SS3, so Goku was fighting to his utmost leading to the release of Buu, and then to fight Buu on a level playing field many chapters later, he creates another level of Super Saiyan. It doesn't fit Goku's character to do something like that and leave it for someone else to clean up. He's done dangerous things like letting Vegeta go, but he always intended to fight him. Same with Piccolo, but inexplicably he decides to create a mess and force others to clean it up?RandomGuy96 wrote:Again with the excuses for Goku, it wasn't a retcon. If it was, it was a completely unnecessary and pointless one that did nothing but paint Goku's character, as he didn't need to be stronger than fatso for the final stretch of the story to work.
We know AT does things on the fly, and it doesn't fit Goku's character. Why in the world, besides bad writing, would Toriyama have Goku fight Vegeta like he did even though Goku knows he's feeding power to Buu if it wasn't a lack of forethought?
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Yeah I guess he has, I just though that maybe Nameks were quick to learn as well.ABED wrote:Goku's always been special in that way.Wibbs wrote:Wouldn't it have taken a lot of practice though? Even seeing it twice wouldn't have made it any easier to learn. Then again that could just be like when Goku instantly learned the Kamehameha.ABED wrote:Maybe he only saw it once from Mutaito and couldn't figure out how to do it from just seeing it one time.
Think about it your own life, if you see something multiple times, isn't it easier to figure out?
It was a dumb thing to do, yes. But that's Goku's character, he likes to fight strong opponents.RandomGuy96 wrote: Letting Vegeta, Piccolo, and Freeza go was beyond dumb and dangerous. He could easily beat one of them, MAYBE beat another (it was close and he won by surprise and luck the first team), and definitely couldn't beat the last. In all cases, he's risking them just nuking the planet from far away, which he would be helpless to stop.
