Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
radrappy wrote:Can you see how saying "freeza gaining all that power in 4 months is dumb!" adds nothing and is not a jumping off point for meaningful discussion? These same people weren't placated by the explanations given so the whole thing is the conversational equivalent of beating one's head against a brick wall. That's not what most people are here for and it's not what I'm here for. If you want to rant about how bad you think the story is, please do it on your own blog.
People have given their reasoning and I don't want to bring the topic back up again. It was merely an example. The point is if you make such a proclamation even while stating more than just "It's dumb", that's not enough. We've heard the response and why it works which is fine for some, but the issue is if you don't accept those reasons as your lord and saviour. Say if I fully embrace the entire concept, I'd still not like it. I'd still not like Freeza returning as I think it's pointless. I'd still not like how short and unexplained the power up is as I feel there's so many other ways to make even the short training period more interesting. I'd still not like the hell bits or Freeza not being a spirit. I'd still not like the Golden look, etc.
However I'm not allowed to be like that. Whether I accept all concepts at face value, or not.
AjayLikesGaming wrote:If you despise the film having seen it, then that's fine, go ahead! Come back and give us your criticisms with some base and we'll all happily listen and have an informed debate.
After everyone saw Battle of Gods, nothing changed. It sucks but honestly the go see it first thing which is a good message, has kinda just become "Shut up stop complaining for now". Not that you of course are trying to say that though. With Battle of Gods those same complaints were still around once everyone saw the movie, but the conversation never changed. The same topics still went on anyways and people were doing the exact same thing as what's going on now.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Fri May 01, 2015 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Doctor. wrote:
That's the point though. People who actually do criticize the movie and are willing to discuss its flaws with those who believe otherwise are always being criticized themselves for promoting a toxic environment when I'm sure that's absolutely not what everyone wants. While I'm aware and I can understand that people are sick of others complaining about the same thing at this point, any time anyone says anything bad about anything anymore, they're instantly jumped on.
Those people that actually do criticize had already been answered to without getting instantly jumped on. The one that's getting jumped on are people that ignores those post and continue and even try again to revive those discussion that had already been discussed about.
How many times has GT been discussed and criticized? How many times has Evolution been discussed and criticized? What about Bio Broly? When those three subjects pop-up, nobody gets sick or even makes a point in saying that enough is enough and that nothing everyone ever says anymore will be something new. What exactly separates the accepted criticism those three get from the "toxic environment" the criticism this film gets apparently creates?
GT? You mean the series that everybody who can watch it already watch it. Discussed many times. Also been criticized many times. Evolution is rarely brought up now. Bio Broly even less. If we based it on this forum here, there are only a few of the same people that is so called criticizing about this. You want to criticize go ahead but purposely ignoring post so that you can make one-liners and again try to revive back a discussion that has and already been answered to in the same thread a couple of pages back is just awful.
dbzfan7 wrote:
radrappy wrote:Can you see how saying "freeza gaining all that power in 4 months is dumb!" adds nothing and is not a jumping off point for meaningful discussion? These same people weren't placated by the explanations given so the whole thing is the conversational equivalent of beating one's head against a brick wall. That's not what most people are here for and it's not what I'm here for. If you want to rant about how bad you think the story is, please do it on your own blog.
People have given their reasoning and I don't want to bring the topic back up again. It was merely an example. The point is if you make such a proclamation even while stating more than just "It's dumb", that's not enough. We've heard the response and why it works which is fine for some, but the issue is if you don't accept those reasons as your lord and saviour. Say if I fully embrace the entire concept, I'd still not like it. I'd still not like Freeza returning as I think it's pointless. I'd still not like how short and unexplained the power up is as I feel there's so many other ways to make even the short training period more interesting. I'd still not like the hell bits or Freeza not being a spirit. I'd still not like the Golden look, etc.
However I'm not allowed to be like that. Whether I accept all concepts at face value, or not.
Who said you aren't allowed to be like that? It's just that bringing up that thing that you hate every goddamn time where there are people that like or accepted is just really annoying and frustrating.
dbzfan7 wrote:
AjayLikesGaming wrote:If you despise the film having seen it, then that's fine, go ahead! Come back and give us your criticisms with some base and we'll all happily listen and have an informed debate.
After everyone saw Battle of Gods, nothing changed. It sucks but honestly the go see it first thing which is a good message, has kinda just become "Shut up stop complaining for now". Not that you of course are trying to say that though. With Battle of Gods those same complaints were still around once everyone saw the movie, but the conversation never changed. The same topics still went on anyways and people were doing the exact same thing as what's going on now.
For you it might not have changed anything but when I first read the summary, I really didn't like it. But after I watched BoG, I was proven wrong. I actually really like it.
I ask thou, WHY MUST IT BE ME? Your weakness is your strength.
Are you reading this? If you are, I just want to let you know that I'm a GREAT GUY.
Dyno wrote:New leaked scenes: Kakarot and Vegeta training and Vegeta transforming into Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.
I won't watch because in those specific moments I want to be amazed.
Good call, a cam leak won't do those scenes justice, I remember being somewhat disappointed by some cam leaks for BoG and turned out much better when I did not see a crappy cam version, not making the same mistake twice!
fexus wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:
AjayLikesGaming wrote:If you despise the film having seen it, then that's fine, go ahead! Come back and give us your criticisms with some base and we'll all happily listen and have an informed debate.
After everyone saw Battle of Gods, nothing changed. It sucks but honestly the go see it first thing which is a good message, has kinda just become "Shut up stop complaining for now". Not that you of course are trying to say that though. With Battle of Gods those same complaints were still around once everyone saw the movie, but the conversation never changed. The same topics still went on anyways and people were doing the exact same thing as what's going on now.
For you it might not have changed anything but when I first read the summary, I really didn't like it. But after I watched BoG, I was proven wrong. I actually really like it.
I was not blown away by BoG when the details first dropped too, but when I watched it, I was blown away! Beerus and Whis were not your average villains, the film was much funnier then I thought it would be and SSG looked really good on screen! And I was blown away even further by the extended edition and dub!
BoG barely felt like a movie as much as it felt like another OVA akin to the 2008 one. It could have been made into a special divided into two episodes with a smaller budget. Mind you, it wouldn't have made as big of a profit, which is counter-productive. I digress. My point is, watching it wouldn't really change any opinions felt from reading its summary/plot, unless you find yourself laughing out loud by the gags.
F is a movie that actually requires you to see it before judging because it emphasizes more on special effects and flashy fights. There's more emphasis on visuals here, from what I gather. That's sort of the point of this particular film. >.>
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
Doctor. wrote:How many times has GT been discussed and criticized? How many times has Evolution been discussed and criticized? What about Bio Broly? When those three subjects pop-up, nobody gets sick or even makes a point in saying that enough is enough and that nothing everyone ever says anymore will be something new. What exactly separates the accepted criticism those three get from the "toxic environment" the criticism this film gets apparently creates?
GT? You mean the series that everybody who can watch it already watch it. Discussed many times. Also been criticized many times. Evolution is rarely brought up now. Bio Broly even less. If we based it on this forum here, there are only a few of the same people that is so called criticizing about this. You want to criticize go ahead but purposely ignoring post so that you can make one-liners and again try to revive back a discussion that has and already been answered to in the same thread a couple of pages back is just awful.
Point is when it's these subjects, then it doesn't matter how many times people bash or go Broly sucks or whatever. In any thread you can say pretty much anything you want positive or negative about the past movies, GT, etc, and no one really cares if you bash it to death. In most GT threads the same point is brought up over and over again, but it doesn't really matter to anyone. Only here and back then with Battle of Gods it suddenly matters.
fexus wrote:Who said you aren't allowed to be like that? It's just that bringing up that thing that you hate every goddamn time where there are people that like or accepted is just really annoying and frustrating.
But if I anyone does the same for the past movies, GT, evolution, then knock yourselves out right? Cause I've never seen anyone hassle anyone for restating an opinion either positive or negative coming up a whole bunch. I've seen tons of Broly bashing to death even when he hardly has anything to do with a topic, but eh he's Broly so people can do that right?
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Fri May 01, 2015 4:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
fadeddreams5 wrote:BoG barely felt like a movie as much as it felt like another OVA akin to the 2008 one. It could have been made into a special divided into two episodes with a smaller budget. Mind you, it wouldn't have made as big of a profit, which is counter-productive. I digress. My point is, watching it wouldn't really change any opinions felt from reading its summary/plot, unless you find yourself laughing out loud by the gags.
F is a movie that actually requires you to see it before judging because it emphasizes more on special effects and flashy fights. There's more emphasis on visuals here, from what I gather. That's sort of the point of this particular film. >.>
I think that's odd.
BoG felt like the only Dragon Ball movie to me.. all the others seemed like OVAs to me.
fadeddreams5 wrote:BoG barely felt like a movie as much as it felt like another OVA akin to the 2008 one. It could have been made into a special divided into two episodes with a smaller budget. Mind you, it wouldn't have made as big of a profit, which is counter-productive. I digress. My point is, watching it wouldn't really change any opinions felt from reading its summary/plot, unless you find yourself laughing out loud by the gags.
F is a movie that actually requires you to see it before judging because it emphasizes more on special effects and flashy fights. There's more emphasis on visuals here, from what I gather. That's sort of the point of this particular film. >.>
I think that's odd.
BoG felt like the only Dragon Ball movie to me.. all the others seemed like OVAs to me.
Yeah, BOG really felt the first Dragon Ball movie, that actually felt like a Dragon Ball movie. As opposed to the other DBZ/DB "movies", excluding perhaps Path To Power, that really felt like TV specials or OVAs.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
AjayLikesGaming wrote:They're jumped on because it's so rarely a rational viewpoint. It's an extreme reaction from reading a summary and watching some short cam clips. It's a reaction that entirely ignores the reasonably positive response from those who have actually seen the film in full. It often twists the words of reviews that speak to the film's structure into something that can be attributed to their in-universe criticisms.
Nobody has an issue with those going "Man, that sounds kinda shitty, I guess I'll have to see how it plays out in the film" because that's a totally rational way to react to something you haven't seen. It's utterly ridiculous to spout unwavering toxic nonsense without even a hint of wonder as to how it's really handled in the film. Nobody should be firm-footed in a viewpoint without having experienced the thing they supposedly hate.
If you despise the film having seen it, then that's fine, go ahead! Come back and give us your criticisms with some base and we'll all happily listen and have an informed debate. That's impossible to have at this stage. There's no worthwhile conversation to be had if everyone is throwing emotionally-riled nonsense at one another. So few acknowledge that they're arguing scenarios they've conjured in their heads from a few words on a page. It's no surprise that it gets so heated.
It really doesn't help that those doing this appear entirely blind to it; playing the victim or posting strawman rubbish as though it excuses their actions. Nobody cares that you have concerns about the plot, they care that you're posting about it in such a relentlessly negative manner. Is it really so hard to remain level-headed with your concerns?
I apologise for singling a user out, but it's these types of posts that rile people up:
Worthless one-liner posts that do nothing to open up debate and only serve to antagonise - joke or otherwise. It's the type of stuff that belongs on Twitter or Facebook.
I didn't join this wonderful forum to come across posts like that. It's not unreasonable to expect a shred of restraint and rationality prior to a film's release.
I don't love Revival of 'F' nor was I particularly on board with some of the concepts revealed prior to seeing it, but never once did I damn the film or call its creator into question. It was a couple of lines of restrained thoughts or ways I hoped things might play out. I don't think it's much to ask for others to react similarly until they've seen it.
They're thoughts from people who have seen the film.
Oh grow up just because myself and others because don't like this movie doesn't mean you have get your panties in a twist.
You want a in-depth reason why i think this movie is garbage? Fine
>Freeza isn't treated as a threat whatsoever
>Whis is nothing more than a Deus Ex Machina
>Vegeta's crowning moment is a 1 minute "fight" against Freeza who's so exhausted his attacks don't even hurt him(one of the best moments in DBZ history my ass)
>The whole multiverse plotline set up in BoG isn't expanded on at all(i hope this is what Super will do)
Last edited by SSJGFrieza on Fri May 01, 2015 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yeah, BOG really felt the first Dragon Ball movie, that actually felt like a Dragon Ball movie. As opposed to the other DBZ/DB "movies", excluding perhaps Path To Power, that really felt like TV specials or OVAs.
I wouldn't say BOG felt like a movie. I remember a few people who even enjoyed it saying it lacked the "feel" of a movie. It's definitely closer to it than most earlier movies, but not quite there at the same time.
Movie 13 is the only one I think truly feels like a movie.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
SSJGFrieza wrote:
You want a in-depth reason why i think this movie is garbage? Fine
>Freeza isn't treated as a threat whatsoever
Still good training and excuse for Vegeta to get his revenge. Even though Freeza rage quits, those punches felt good. And he's the only villain that deserves to be back.
>Whis is nothing more than a Deus Ex Machina
No, Whis has a unique ability to make his character unique. Which he hints right in the beginning and comes to use later. Good writting!
>Vegeta's crowning moment is a 1 minute "fight" against Freeza who's so exhausted his attacks don't even hurt him(one of the best moments in DBZ history my ass)
1 minute is still better than most of all other movies, where he gets his ass beaten right away after his "badass" entrance.
Not the best DBZ moment, but one of the best Vegeta's movie moments by far. In your ass, indeed.
>The whole multiverse plotline set up in BoG isn't expanded on at all(i hope this is what Super will do)
I woud like this idea to be expanded too, but Toriyama never confirmed it would do it.
Doesn't make this movie garbage either. Point invalid.
Last edited by FortuneSSJ on Fri May 01, 2015 10:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
SSJGFrieza wrote:
Oh grow up just because myself and others because don't like this movie doesn't mean you have get your panties in a twist.
You want a in-depth reason why i think this movie is garbage? Fine
>Freeza isn't treated as a threat whatsoever
>Whis is nothing more than a Deus Ex Machina
>Vegeta's crowning moment is a 1 minute "fight" against Freeza who's so exhausted his attacks don't even hurt him(one of the best moments in DBZ history my ass)
>The whole multiverse plotline set up in BoG isn't expanded on at all(i hope this is what Super will do)
You're free to formulate an opinion without having seen the film and we are free to completely disregard said opinion because you haven't seen the film. If you still feel the same way after seeing it, feel free to come back. Thanks for parroting Kotaku though!
Yeah, BOG really felt the first Dragon Ball movie, that actually felt like a Dragon Ball movie. As opposed to the other DBZ/DB "movies", excluding perhaps Path To Power, that really felt like TV specials or OVAs.
I wouldn't say BOG felt like a movie. I remember a few people who even enjoyed it saying it lacked the "feel" of a movie. It's definitely closer to it than most earlier movies, but not quite there at the same time.
Movie 13 is the only one I think truly feels like a movie.
Battle of Gods to me felt like a step to a whole new world and direction, but FNF feels like a filler movie. A cool filler movie with intense action, but still kinda feels like it doesn't add much to the series beyond flashy forms and cool action. Feels to me almost as pointless as the Super 17 arc of GT.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Yeah, BOG really felt the first Dragon Ball movie, that actually felt like a Dragon Ball movie. As opposed to the other DBZ/DB "movies", excluding perhaps Path To Power, that really felt like TV specials or OVAs.
I wouldn't say BOG felt like a movie. I remember a few people who even enjoyed it saying it lacked the "feel" of a movie. It's definitely closer to it than most earlier movies, but not quite there at the same time.
Movie 13 is the only one I think truly feels like a movie.
Battle of Gods to me felt like a step to a whole new world and direction, but FNF feels like a filler movie. A cool filler movie with intense action, but still kinda feels like it doesn't add much to the series beyond flashy forms and cool action. Feels to me almost as pointless as the Super 17 arc of GT.
Holy shit! You comment made me think a little. As hype as I am for the movie. As much as I wanna see it. This movie does read like a dbz filler! You can remove this movie and still have Blue SSJ debut in DB Super! This movie doesn't effect anything in the series just like filler! This is basically a training of Goku and Vegeta movie. This movie is the equal to those filler Gohan training episode.
TheGmGoken wrote:Holy shit! You comment made me think a little. As hype as I am for the movie. As much as I wanna see it. This movie does read like a dbz filler! You can remove this movie and still have Blue SSJ debut in DB Super! This movie doesn't effect anything in the series just like filler! This is basically a training of Goku and Vegeta movie. This movie is the equal to those filler Gohan training episode.
Pretty much. You could introduce SSGSS in Dragon Ball Super and we honestly don't really lose anything of real importance. Well I guess to some Freeza coming back is real important so I guess that's nice. Doesn't sound like he does really anything memorable since Whis just ends up fixing it cause....he has this time power....just cause. Just write out Goku and Vegeta's new forms, and this movie could have been like it never happened.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
TheGmGoken wrote:
Holy shit! You comment made me think a little. As hype as I am for the movie. As much as I wanna see it. This movie does read like a dbz filler! You can remove this movie and still have Blue SSJ debut in DB Super! This movie doesn't effect anything in the series just like filler! This is basically a training of Goku and Vegeta movie. This movie is the equal to those filler Gohan training episode.
Regardless when is Super exactly taking place, they will have to do some sort of 'recap' of what has happened in BOG & ROF. Maybe using Mr. Satan or someone else to provide loredump exposition. This show is suppoused to be following Kai (and EOZ presumably) directly so it should take into account that not everyone saw the movies, ROF in particular which is gonna be just few months old by the time the series debuts. Randomly just having Super Bluper pop up without explanation would be jarring from a continuous TV series perspective.
Last edited by Basaku on Fri May 01, 2015 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Saiga wrote:Movie 13 is the only one I think truly feels like a movie.
13 felt more like a typical movie would, but I think BoG had some really nice transitions that gave it a very film-esque vibe. Either way, as an entertainment medium, film isn't really governed by any strict standards in terms of the way it's meant to be structured.
Also (and this isn't aimed at you, saiga) I don't think it's fair to call RoF all flash and no substance considering its emphasis on character interactions and development.
. Randomly just having Super Bluper pop up without explanation would be jarring from a continuous TV series perspective.
Already happened once. They can recap BoG and have Goku and Vegeta train with Whis the first few episodes. Then debut SSGSSJ and explain the form like Goku did in movie. Could easily be a 1 to 4 episode villain from another universe. Goku can lose due to over confidence. Vegeta can lose due to letting his anger get the best of him. Whis reverse time. Goku and Vegeta work together.
