Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
fadeddreams5 wrote:I think I like Toei/Anime "self-righteous" Goku more...
I personally don't, it makes him pretty generic. Goku may be more of a dick with Toriyama's version, but at least he's his own character.
Agree'd, reason why I dont like Luffy/Naruto and Ichigo. Despite Toriyama sensei's Goku being a lil scummy at least he's unique like Gintama's Gintoki a sadistic SoB
That isn't filler. Filler is when they show something that isn't any all related or important and will not be brought up again. I don't even know how you think what you feel is an incomplete material filler.
There's multiple definitions of filler my friend.
Than just say incomplete material. Why say filler when you know there are various definition about it. This isn't like the word canon.
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fadeddreams5 wrote:I think I like Toei/Anime "self-righteous" Goku more...
I personally don't, it makes him pretty generic. Goku may be more of a dick with Toriyama's version, but at least he's his own character.
Well, Toei/Anime Goku is the same as Toriyama Goku, only with heroism and self-righteousness attached. He's obsessed with training/fighting, but he's also more caring. Balances itself out, imo. If I'm not mistaken, these new movies are displaying that intended "poison" Goku's character was supposed to have more so than ever.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
fadeddreams5 wrote:
Well, Toei/Anime Goku is the same as Toriyama Goku, only with heroism and self-righteousness attached. He's obsessed with training/fighting, but he's also more caring. Balances itself out, imo. If I'm not mistaken, these new movies are displaying that intended "poison" Goku's character was supposed to have more so than ever.
I'm not sure both movies display it. Battle of Gods makes somewhat of a deal out of Goku's pride, but it's didn't cost him to lose the battle; him ignoring his pride was what made him actually have a chance. Now, RF on the other hand is the movie that actually makes a big deal out of Goku's overconfidence.
fadeddreams5 wrote:I think I like Toei/Anime "self-righteous" Goku more...
I personally don't, it makes him pretty generic. Goku may be more of a dick with Toriyama's version, but at least he's his own character.
Well, Toei/Anime Goku is the same as Toriyama Goku, only with heroism and self-righteousness attached. He's obsessed with training/fighting, but he's also more caring. Balances itself out, imo. If I'm not mistaken, these new movies are displaying that intended "poison" Goku's character was supposed to have more so than ever.
I'm with Piccolo that only Gohan and Goten are the true pure people .
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
TheGmGoken wrote:
@GokuBeingCocky. Didn't Popo and Roshi taught him NOT to be cocky? Now Whis is teaching him?
It was also him if I recall telling Gohan not to be cocky when he was kept avoiding killing Perfect Cell and When he was messing around with Dabura.
dbzfan7 wrote:I'm with Piccolo that only Gohan and Goten are the true pure people .
Until Gohan gets powered up into his cocky, bloodlust mode at least. If anything Goten is the pure of heart one.. for now.
Last edited by SingleFringe&Sparks on Sat May 02, 2015 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.
dbzfan7 wrote:I'm with Piccolo that only Gohan and Goten are the true pure people .
Until Gohan gets powered up into his cocky, bloodlust mode at least. If anything Goten is the pure of heart one.. for now.
True, though it seems only in his Ultimate state he's that as well as SSJ2 when he uses it. Otherwise he's pure. Goten is the sole pure guy....til maybe his interests in girls peak .
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:I'm with Piccolo that only Gohan and Goten are the true pure people .
Until Gohan gets powered up into his cocky, bloodlust mode at least. If anything Goten is the pure of heart one.. for now.
True, though it seems only in his Ultimate state he's that as well as SSJ2 when he uses it. Otherwise he's pure. Goten is the sole pure guy....til maybe his interests in girls peak .
I'll give Gohan credit though, he at least knows he can be like this when he gets too strong for his own good and thus why he would rather avoid fighting, but disappointing his dad and piccolo was worse for him; so he takes the risks. I'll call that a pure-hearted life style sacrafice.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.
Doctor. wrote:Gohan was cocky in his ultimate state, but unlike way back in the Cell Games, he was actually trying to kill Boo rather than making him suffer.
I don't know about that. He did try to kill buu progressively, but he held back in the first few attempts to humiliate him.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.
Doctor. wrote:Gohan was cocky in his ultimate state, but unlike way back in the Cell Games, he was actually trying to kill Boo rather than making him suffer.
I don't know about that. He did try to kill buu progressively, but he held back in the first few attempts to humiliate him.
I think that was more of an anime thing, in the manga his fight with Boo was one chapter or so, it was almost impossible to judge if he was holding back or not.
Doctor. wrote:Gohan was cocky in his ultimate state, but unlike way back in the Cell Games, he was actually trying to kill Boo rather than making him suffer.
I don't know about that. He did try to kill buu progressively, but he held back in the first few attempts to humiliate him.
I think that was more of an anime thing, in the manga his fight with Boo was one chapter or so, it was almost impossible to judge if he was holding back or not.
Not even a chapter. It was like 7 pages of fighting and that was it. His entire fight was in "Deep Trouble", which was just over a quarter of the chapter. After that the next chapter Boo and Gohan talk, and then Boo blows himself up.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:I don't know about that. He did try to kill buu progressively, but he held back in the first few attempts to humiliate him.
Aside from SSJ, everytime Gohan got a new form someone died.
Oozaru: No one died.
SSJ: No one died
SSJ2: Goku died. Also Trunks kinda counts I guess.
Ultimate: No one really directly died from this. The only actual death's happened once Goku and Vegeta reverted Boo.
So that's like 2 times at best out of the forms he had.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Sat May 02, 2015 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Goku was an extremely flawed character in FnF and it was splendid. It really reinforces what's absolutely unique about him compared to other shounen heroes. You'll never hear Goku crying out to protect his "nakama." If anything he's extremely selfish when it comes to a fight; drawing it out and testing himself at the potential cost of others' safety.
radrappy wrote:Goku was an extremely flawed character in FnF and it was splendid. It really reinforces what's absolutely unique about him compared to other shounen heroes. You'll never hear Goku crying out to protect his "nakama." If anything he's extremely selfish when it comes to a fight; drawing it out and testing himself at the potential cost of others' safety.
I'd like that more if people didn't take so kindly to that behaviour. They're way too easy on Goku. Or even Goku not being so pure after all would be an interesting turn of events. I'd be interested if this aspect of Goku kinda made some people a lil distant to him.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Honestly I don't see a real problem with the transformation, I mean it looks fine from what I've seen. I'm more interested in seeing how entertaining the movie is and how good the fights will be, etc.
