The lack of new transformations in DBS is surprising

[Xeno Goku Black]

Why are you so obsessed with characters getting new forms

I'm not... The point is that the show hasn't been as new transformation heavy as I expected.

There have been a lot of new transformations in DBS, especially compared to DBGT.

Spoiler:

The new movie even introduces a total of three forms.

GT was only 64 episodes and lasted a year. Super was 131 episodes, has a manga that's 84 chapters long and had two movies. It's been around for seven years, the same as Z.

[WittyUsername]

Why are you so obsessed with characters getting new forms

I'm not... The point is that the show hasn't been as new transformation heavy as I expected.

There have been a lot of new transformations in DBS, especially compared to DBGT.

Spoiler:

The new movie even introduces a total of three forms.

GT was only 64 episodes and lasted a year. Super was 131 episodes, has a manga that's 84 chapters long and had two movies. It's been around for seven years, the same as Z.

The original manga went on for 11 years, and Super Saiyans weren’t even introduced until nearly seven years into its run.

[Xeno Goku Black]

The original manga went on for 11 years, and Super Saiyans weren’t even introduced until nearly seven years into its run.

Dragon Ball Z as a sub series ran from 1989 to 1995.

[WittyUsername]

The original manga went on for 11 years, and Super Saiyans weren’t even introduced until nearly seven years into its run.

Dragon Ball Z as a sub series ran from 1989 to 1995.

The manga doesn’t have any distinction between the pre and post-Raditz stuff. It’s all a single continuous manga series that ran from 1984 to 1995.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Yes I know that, its why I'm referring to it as the sub series. The Z brand, anime and movies lasted about 6 years. In that time, Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks and the main antagonists all had far more transformations than what they get in Super.

[Dbzfan94]

It’s mostly the villains that count for majority of Z’s forms.

DBS has over double the amount of Super Saiyan forms than the original manga did however.

[Xeno Goku Black]

It’s mostly the villains that count for majority of Z’s forms.

DBS has over double the amount of Super Saiyan forms than the original manga did however.

If you just look at the manga you get

Z - Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Grade 2, Super Saiyan Grade 3, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3

Super - Super Saiyan Rose, Super Saiyan Blue Evolution, Ultra Instinct, Ultra Ego

Unless I'm missing something then Z has more. Again it's unfair to include Super Saiyan God and Blue as they were from Z first.

[Zephyr]

If it's unfair to include God and Blue as "Super" transformations, then it's unfair to include Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, and the grade forms as "Z" transformations. That which they debuted in did not have a "Z" in its name.

You can of course say "the Z portion of the story", or "the part of the story that Z adapts", but someone can just as well say "the Super portion of the story", or "the part of the story that Super adapts".

[Hugo Boss]

If it's unfair to include God and Blue as "Super" transformations, then it's unfair to include Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, and the grade forms as "Z" transformations. That which they debuted in did not have a "Z" in its name.

You can of course say "the Z portion of the story", or "the part of the story that Z adapts", but someone can just as well say "the Super portion of the story", or "the part of the story that Super adapts".

I agree and prefer this approach.

“Z” era had Kaioken, SS Grade 1, SS Grade 2, SS Grade 3, SS Grade 4, SS2, SS3 and Ultimate among Saiyans, Freeza had 3 transformations, Zarbon had 1, Cell had 5, Majin Boo had 7. That’s about 24 (not counting fusions).

“Super” era or rather the content that debuted by 2013 until now has SS2 Evolution, SSGod, SSBlue, SSB Kaioken, SSBlue Evolution, Ultra Instinct Sign, Perfect Ultra Instinct, SSRosé, SS Rage, SS Berserker, Humanoid Great Ape, Ultra Ego and Gohan’s new form among Saiyans. Freeza had 1 transformation, Dyspo had 1, Toppo had 1, Jiren had 1, Moro had 5, Piccolo had 2. That’s about 24 (not counting fusions again).

You might have your own nitpicks about what count as a transformation or not, but for me it seems the two eras have more or less the same feel concerning new forms.

[Xeno Goku Black]

If it's unfair to include God and Blue as "Super" transformations, then it's unfair to include Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, and the grade forms as "Z" transformations. That which they debuted in did not have a "Z" in its name.

Well there is no "if" about. It's a straight fact that both forms were introduced in a movie called "Dragon Ball Z".

someone can just as well say "the Super portion of the story", or "the part of the story that Super adapts".

Yeah and then someone can just say that the part of the story that Super adapts originated with Z. Both forms were introduced in a Dragon Ball Z product prior to Dragon Ball Super being announced.

[Zelvin]

I'm just gonna say that the forms in the new movie are rather dogshit terrible. With Tori having gone on about not liking how beefy the characters were getting, seemed like a rather poor choice then to make Piccolo's tomato body a big beefcake. And Gohan's new form is just a Meme. Add in the way MUI is treated in the Manga as of late and it all seems so pointless. Ultra Ego is literally just turning Vegeta getting the shit kicked out of him into a fetish.

They overplayed the transformation game. I'd rather have seen an evolution of their Techniques. What new techniques has any of the main team actually developed? None. Gohan just inherits another of Piccolo's and Vegeta's spirit fission is a one-and-done. Instead of pulling a new transformation out of the ass every time, it'd be better to make the fights a struggle and instead focus on developing their actual special techniques and attacks.

For instance, why hasn't Tenshinhan combined the Kikoho with the Four-Witches Technique? Instead of a square, it forms an eight-point star with an even stronger focus. That should be an obvious way to combine techniques he already has into something more concentrated and powerful.

Kamehameha is iconic, but by god is it tiresome.

[Grimlock]

Super Dragon Ball Heroes has done very well off of it.

Alright, let's talk about that, following your logic in this thread. Since you are adamant on weirdly count transformations per character, not in overall speaking, then the lack of new transformations in Dragon Ball Heroes is suprising.

I really did think that DBS was going to milk that dry.

But they haven't really have they? If you just look at the main characters and take into account the series starting from the Universe 6 saga to now and with the movies included, that's a 7 year period. There hasn't been that many at all.

I really did think that DBH was going to milk that dry.

But they haven't really have they? If you just look at the main characters and take into account that it only started telling stories in 2016, there hasn't been that many at all.

Goku has the Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken (hardly a transformation at that) and then Ultra Instinct Sign and Ultra Instinct of which those two are part of a package.

Vegeta has only had Super Saiyan Blue Evolution and Ultra Ego. Just two.

Gohan who was the next main character didn't have at all. He's still sporting his Ultimate form.

Xeno Goku has no new transformation, only a variation of Super Saiyan 4. If you want to count Super Full Power Saiyan 4: Limit Breaker.

Xeno Vegeta has no new transformation, only a variation of Super Saiyan 4. If you want to count Super Full Power Saiyan 4: Limit Breaker.

Xeno Gohan only got two transformations, Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan 4.

Then when it comes to the villains Frieza transformed three times. Cell twice. Buu was ridiculous he had over over a half dozen forms.

Then when it comes to villains, Xeno Freeza, Xeno Cell and Xeno Buu only got one form each, and even then, they're only transformations because their eyes glow in a different color than the usual, if it weren't for that, they wouldn't be transformations.

I'd say amongst the main heroes and villains the series has been less transformation heavy than Dragon Ball Z to be honest.

I'd say amongst the main heroes and villains the game has been less transformation heavy than the entirety of Dragon Ball to be honest.

I was half expecting Goku to get a new form in every arc. For the villains to get three or four transformations a piece. It never happened.

I was half expecting Xeno Goku to get a new form in every arc. For the villains to get three or four transformations a piece. It never happened.

Across 6 and a half years of original Dragon Ball Super material we got...

2 (3 if you count Kaio-ken Blue) new transformations for Goku.

2 new transformations for Vegeta.

1 new transformation for Trunks, Gohan, Piccolo, Broly and Frieza.

That ain't much.

Across six years of original Dragon Ball Heroes stories, we got just what I stated above, plus...

1 new transformation for Xeno Trunks.

0 new transformation for Piccolo.

1 new transformation for Broly, which technically isn't "new", for same reason as the Xeno villains stated above (and one variation).

That ain't much.


See how easy this is? Going by your logic, even Dragon Ball Heroes hasn't come up with many and/or new forms for a single character.

[Xeno Goku Black]

See how easy this is? Going by your logic, even Dragon Ball Heroes hasn't come up with many and/or new forms for a single character.

But you also fail to take into account the amount of material with which it has to work with.

Dragon Ball Super has 106 (not including recap arcs) 20 minute episodes. It has 80 manga chapters (not including Battle of Gods arc). It also has 2 90 minute movies.

Dragon Ball Heroes has 42 7 minute episodes, so about 1/8th the amount of footage, and 46 chapters (of which only 30 of those involve the same mainline characters). It it a spin off and therefore can only limit itself on what it can do.

However Goku/Vegeta still had Super Saiyan Berserk, Super Saiyan Blue Berserk and Universe Tree absorbed Super Saiyan Blue. Xeno Goku/Vegeta got Super Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker which obviously counts. We won't count Controlled Berserk or Barrier though they are technically new forms.

There's Cumbers Evil Saiyan transformation and Super Saiyan 3 Full Power. Goku Black and Super Saiyan Rose 2, Super Saiyan Rose 3 and Super Saiyan Rose Full Power.

Cooler, Turles, Bojack, Janemba, Dr. Wheelo, Omega Shenron etc all had new forms. Xeno Cell transformed into Cell X which is a new form.

Mechikabura transformed three times, Cumber transformed three times during the battle with him. Hearts transformed twice. Goku Black transformed four times. Fu transformed three times.

So...no.

[Zephyr]

If it's unfair to include God and Blue as "Super" transformations, then it's unfair to include Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, and the grade forms as "Z" transformations. That which they debuted in did not have a "Z" in its name.

Well there is no "if" about. It's a straight fact that both forms were introduced in a movie called "Dragon Ball Z".

someone can just as well say "the Super portion of the story", or "the part of the story that Super adapts".

Yeah and then someone can just say that the part of the story that Super adapts originated with Z. Both forms were introduced in a Dragon Ball Z product prior to Dragon Ball Super being announced.

Yes, and so you agree that Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, the grade forms, Freeza's transformations, Cell's transformations, etc. are not "Z" transformations?

[Xeno Goku Black]

Yes, and so you agree that Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, the grade forms, Freeza's transformations, Cell's transformations, etc. are not "Z" transformations?

No I do not. It's pedantic to say they aren't Z transformations just because the manga was only called Dragon Ball. The manga was adapted into Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. The transformations appeared in Dragon Ball Z, not sure why there's a need to worm around that.

[Zephyr]

Yes, and so you agree that Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, the grade forms, Freeza's transformations, Cell's transformations, etc. are not "Z" transformations?

No I do not. It's pedantic to say they aren't Z transformations just because the manga was only called Dragon Ball. The manga was adapted into Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. The transformations appeared in Dragon Ball Z, not sure why there's a need to worm around that.

Well, then it's pedantic to say that Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue aren't Super transformations. They're both from the modern batch of material, separated in real time from Toriyama's headspace, creative process, and ongoing story from the 90's by nearly 20 years. That the brand name is more salient to you than all of that is honestly weird.

That the brand name is only salient to you insofar as it results in the exclusion of something from Super, but not as it results in the exclusion of something from Z, comes across, as others have said, as disingenuous.

Battle of Gods and Resurrection F were adapted into Dragon Ball Super. The transformations appeared in Dragon Ball Super, not sure why there's a need to worm around that.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Well, then it's pedantic to say that Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue aren't Super transformations.

No it isn't. Super Saiyan and co were introduced into the anime with Dragon Ball Z. Super Saiyan God and Blue were introduced in a Dragon Ball Z movie.

Doesn't matter if it's part of the modern era. Beerus and Whis weren't introduced in Super. They were introduced in Z.

[Zephyr]

Super Saiyan and co were introduced into the anime with Dragon Ball Z. Super Saiyan God and Blue were introduced in a Dragon Ball Z movie.

Why does the introduction of Super Saiyan into the TV anime matter more than its introduction in general?

Why does the introduction of Super Saiyan God in general matter more than its introduction into the TV anime?

There's no way you don't see how inconsistent this is.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Why does the introduction of Super Saiyan into the TV anime matter more than its introduction in general?

Why does the introduction of Super Saiyan God in general matter more than its introduction into the TV anime?

There's no way you don't see how inconsistent this is.

There is no inconsistency. Just the facts.

Super Saiyan was introduced in the Dragon Ball Manga which upon being adapted appeared for the first time in an anime called Dragon Ball Z. There is no anime that covered those events simply titled Dragon Ball.

Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue were introduced in a Dragon Ball Z movie.

They may have first appeared in an anime TV series called Dragon Ball Super but they were not created for Dragon Ball Super.

Beerus and Whis were created for a Z product. Champa and Vados were created for a Super product.

[Grimlock]

But you also fail to take into account the amount of material with which it has to work with.

Dragon Ball Super has 106 (not including recap arcs) 20 minute episodes. It has 80 manga chapters (not including Battle of Gods arc). It also has 2 90 minute movies.

Dragon Ball Heroes has 42 7 minute episodes, so about 1/8th the amount of footage, and 46 chapters (of which only 30 of those involve the same mainline characters).

No, I don't. Dragon Ball Heroes is an arcade game, therefore I'm considering that. I didn't even think about the anime, which obviously doesn't matter anyway. The "main product" of Heroes in the arcade, not the anime.

It it a spin off and therefore can only limit itself on what it can do.

It isn't. Dragon Ball Heroes still follows Goku's story.

However Goku/Vegeta still had Super Saiyan Berserk, Super Saiyan Blue Berserk and Universe Tree absorbed Super Saiyan Blue. Xeno Goku/Vegeta got Super Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker which obviously counts. We won't count Controlled Berserk or Barrier though they are technically new forms.

There's Cumbers Evil Saiyan transformation and Super Saiyan 3 Full Power. Goku Black and Super Saiyan Rose 2, Super Saiyan Rose 3 and Super Saiyan Rose Full Power.

Those ain't much, as per your logic.

Cooler, Turles, Bojack, Janemba, Dr. Wheelo, Omega Shenron etc all had new forms. Xeno Cell transformed into Cell X which is a new form. Mechikabura transformed three times, Cumber transformed three times during the battle with him. Hearts transformed twice. Goku Black transformed four times. Fu transformed three times.

No, you specifically limited this thread to the main characters and villains. So no mention to other characters (but then again, those ain't much, as per your logic). And Cell-X doesn't count, as this transformation doesn't come from Dragon Ball Heroes.