Buu Saga Piccolo and Buu Saga base Saiyan comparison

[TheMightyOzaru]

I've searched high and low for a concrete answer to this question. Who is stronger Piccolo or the Base Saiyans in the Buu saga? I find myself in a paradox here. Evidence points to both sides being true let me show you what I mean.
Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”
According to Dabura 3 of them have marvelous energy. It cant be referring to Piccolo, Kaioshin, Kibito, or Krillin because A Dabura flat out says they cant use Kibito or Kaioshins energy and B Dabura turned both Krillin and Piccolo to stone. Thats counterproductive if Piccolo happened to be one of the 3. That leaves us with Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta. Now I will say right now I have no problem with Vegeta or Goku being stronger than Kaioshin and Piccolo in base however I do have a problem with Gohan being stronger than Piccolo. If he is that would mean that base Gohan from the Cell games has to be a good deal stronger than the Piccolo from the Budokai whom is stronger than the Piccolo form the Cell games. Problem there is you would have to assume that base Gohan is stronger than SSJ Trunks and SSJ Vegeta since Piccolo was close to them. Now you may think well thats possible I suppose. Well its not. When Goku showed half of his FPSSJ power, Vegeta was shocked at how strong he was. At the Cell games Vegeta was confident that he could win which points to him being stronger than FPSSJ Goku's half power at this point. That said that would mean FPSSJ Goku is less than 2x as strong as SSJ Vegeta. We know that Gohan is stronger than Goku but over 25x stronger than his father? I find that to be just wrong. For those of you that just missed the point here is a simple version. Goku = less than 2x stronger than SSJ Vegeta. Piccolo is close to SSJ Vegeta since he faired well against the Cell Jrs. that would mean Goku is probably somewhere within the vicinity of 2-4x stronger than Piccolo. That said Gohan is stronger than Goku at this point in time so he is somewhere with in the general vicinity of 3-6x stronger than Piccolo. That said divide that by 50 and we get Base Gohan being 16.66666667-8.3333333334x weaker than Piccolo. Now that said, both Vegeta and Goku state Gohan is weaker than he was at the Cell games which means he is much weaker than Piccolo =/. What I want to know is how the heck Dabura screwed this up? Even if Piccolo really is stronger than Gohan, why the heck is his energy signal higher?

[hleV]

About time you started formatting your walls of text appropriately, really.

But to contribute to the topic in a way, I'll just suggest you to not give too much credit to Babidi and Dabra (as apparently they can't sense ki, just energy, which is not the same) and especially Kaioshin, because, well, he's obviously a dumbfuck.
So with that, we only have base Saiyans agreeing to not go SSJ in the 25th TB, whilst knowing that Piccolo and #18 are entering as well. In my opinion (which is better than anyone else's, fuck you if you think otherwise!), it may have been meant that Saiyans don't transform against Saiyans, because the outcome is still the same whether it's x vs y or 50x vs 50y. To beat Piccolo and #18, any of the 3 Saiyans could've done them in by transforming for an instant.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Hard to tell. If we take Dabra's statement to mean the Base Saiyans are superior to Piccolo, then we have to also take the statement to also mean their energy alone is enough to contribute more than half of the remaining energy needed for Majin Boo. I think it makes more sense for Dabra to be referring to something deeper within the Saiyans rather than any power they could be emitting, since they were all stated to be suppressed.

[TheMightyOzaru]

About time you started formatting your walls of text appropriately, really.

But to contribute to the topic in a way, I'll just suggest you to not give too much credit to Babidi and Dabra (as apparently they can't sense ki, just energy, which is not the same) and especially Kaioshin, because, well, he's obviously a dumbfuck.
So with that, we only have base Saiyans agreeing to not go SSJ in the 25th TB, whilst knowing that Piccolo and #18 are entering as well. In my opinion (which is better than anyone else's, fuck you if you think otherwise!), it may have been meant that Saiyans don't transform against Saiyans, because the outcome is still the same whether it's x vs y or 50x vs 50y. To beat Piccolo and #18, any of the 3 Saiyans could've done them in by transforming for an instant.

Yeah I am aware that Dabura and Babidi cant sense energy worth crap, same goes for Kibito and Kaioshin. However what I want to know is why the heck Babidi thinks Yakon is a match for Kaioshin? In ch451 Pg9 he says something along the lines of "Kill them all except for Kaioshin!" This would kind of imply that Babidi thinks his monster is stronger than Kaioshin. This all basically comes down to whether or not Babidi and Dabura are underestimating Kaioshin. Its certainly possible but you would think they had a good idea of how powerful he is. Then there is also the fact that Gohan is giving off a greater energy signal which is weird.

[Kaboom]

My easy answer:

Piccolo is stronger than all three of the base Saiyans. Bobbidi is a wizard and Dabra is the king of the demon realm, and they both divine that the Saiyans are the strongest of the group through some sort of magical clairvoyance. They don't, however, realize WHY they're the strongest (they have Super Saiyan 2 and 3 up their sleeves), nor just HOW strong they all really are (any of the three at their max could easily slaughter Dabra). They were evidently all pretty bad judges of power, given how they expected Pui-Pui to be overkill...

But in the end, they were right, without even knowing why. Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku did provide "marvelous" amounts of energy that quickly allowed for Majin Boo's release. But it was Super Saiyan 2 amounts of power from them (directly siphoned from Gohan, and converted Goku's damage from fighting Vegeta) that actually did it. Piccolo is "trash" compared to their SSj/2/3 powers.

[TheMightyOzaru]

My easy answer:

Piccolo is stronger than all three of the base Saiyans. Bobbidi is a wizard and Dabra is the king of the demon realm, and they both divine that the Saiyans are the strongest of the group through some sort of magical clairvoyance. They don't, however, realize WHY they're the strongest (they have Super Saiyan 2 and 3 up their sleeves), nor just HOW strong they all really are (any of the three at their max could easily slaughter Dabra). They were evidently all pretty bad judges of power, given how they expected Pui-Pui to be overkill...

But in the end, they were right, without even knowing why. Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku did provide "marvelous" amounts of energy that quickly allowed for Majin Boo's release. But it was Super Saiyan 2 amounts of power from them (directly siphoned from Gohan, and converted Goku's damage from fighting Vegeta) that actually did it. Piccolo is "trash" compared to their SSj/2/3 powers.

I like this answer, for the most part, thank you ^_^.

[Herms]

Hard to tell. If we take Dabra's statement to mean the Base Saiyans are superior to Piccolo, then we have to also take the statement to also mean their energy alone is enough to contribute more than half of the remaining energy needed for Majin Boo. I think it makes more sense for Dabra to be referring to something deeper within the Saiyans rather than any power they could be emitting, since they were all stated to be suppressed.

Well, the Super Saiyan levels apparently work by drawing out more and more of a Saiyan's dormant power, at least going by the Daizenshuu 7 technique dictionary descriptions. So if Dabra and Babidi can somehow gauge the Saiyan's dormant power (however imperfectly), they'd be indirectly gauging the strength of their Super Saiyan forms. Kind of ties in to Kaboom's idea of them know Goku and co. are stronger without knowing why. And Babidi can use his magic to draw out his followers' dormant power to beyond their limits, so it'd make sense for him to have some method of telling how much dormant power a person had. Maybe the reason he's do surprised at Goku and co.'s strength is that he could tell they had oodles of dormant power but never imagined they could draw it out themselves so effectively.

[Mystic Gohan]

While there is quite a bit of evidence for base Saiyan > Piccolo, I am a believer of Piccolo > base Saiyans.

[dbzfan7]

While there is quite a bit of evidence for base Saiyan > Piccolo, I am a believer of Piccolo > base Saiyans.

I believe that too.

[Bussani]

Well, the Super Saiyan levels apparently work by drawing out more and more of a Saiyan's dormant power, at least going by the Daizenshuu 7 technique dictionary descriptions. So if Dabra and Babidi can somehow gauge the Saiyan's dormant power (however imperfectly), they'd be indirectly gauging the strength of their Super Saiyan forms. Kind of ties in to Kaboom's idea of them know Goku and co. are stronger without knowing why. And Babidi can use his magic to draw out his followers' dormant power to beyond their limits, so it'd make sense for him to have some method of telling how much dormant power a person had. Maybe the reason he's do surprised at Goku and co.'s strength is that he could tell they had oodles of dormant power but never imagined they could draw it out themselves so effectively.

It really has to be something like that, I think. Piccolo, the Saiyans--everyone was hiding their ki when Babidi and Dabura somehow decided who was strong and who wasn't, so they just can't have been talking about whose ki was biggest.

[TheMightyOzaru]

While there is quite a bit of evidence for base Saiyan > Piccolo, I am a believer of Piccolo > base Saiyans.

I think its base Goku and base Vegeta > Kaioshin, base Gohan < Piccolo. To each there own I suppose.

[Mystic Gohan]

While there is quite a bit of evidence for base Saiyan > Piccolo, I am a believer of Piccolo > base Saiyans.

I think its base Goku and base Vegeta > Kaioshin, base Gohan < Piccolo. To each there own I suppose.

base Saiyans > Kaioshin has very strong evidence towards it IMO. One could ignore Babidi and Dabura as bad sensors in order to explain Kaioshin's strength/surprise as well as Kaioshin being a dumbass.

[Blade]

Let's try and be as objective about this as we can.

I think it's realistic to assume that Piccolo reached the height of his powers somewhere between merging with Kami and his subsequent training in the Room of Spirit and Time. He left the room asserting that there was little point in him using any more time in there to train and that he had done all he can. This coupled with Piccolo's acceptance of inferiority against Cell and his future lack of front-line involvement in the Majin Buu saga implies that indeed Piccolo had reached the absolute peak of his abilities - and he both knew and accepted this.

So how powerful was Piccolo at his peak? We know that after merging with Kami he was around as strong as Android 17 - who at the time was stronger than either Goku or Vegeta at Super Saiyan. Presuming that Piccolo was unable to better his abilities much from this point we then need to move into the realm of conjecture to determine how much more powerful Goku and Vegeta were at the start of the Buu arc in comparison to the end of the Cell arc.

Were Goku or Vegeta powerful enough at this point to be able to defeat Android 17 at base? I would be inclined to think that yes, they were - as it would be concurrent with the usual snowballing of the power levels of the Saiyans that takes place between sagas. Maybe another way of thinking about it would be: "Would Goku or Vegeta need to become a Super Saiyan to defeat Android 17 having had 7 years of intense training after defeating Cell, at which point they were already at a level of ability far above that of 17's strength?"

[Hitiro]

Let's try and be as objective about this as we can.

I think it's realistic to assume that Piccolo reached the height of his powers somewhere between merging with Kami and his subsequent training in the Room of Spirit and Time. He left the room asserting that there was little point in him using any more time in there to train and that he had done all he can. This coupled with Piccolo's acceptance of inferiority against Cell and his future lack of front-line involvement in the Majin Buu saga implies that indeed Piccolo had reached the absolute peak of his abilities - and he both knew and accepted this.

So how powerful was Piccolo at his peak? We know that after merging with Kami he was around as strong as Android 17 - who at the time was stronger than either Goku or Vegeta at Super Saiyan. Presuming that Piccolo was unable to better his abilities much from this point we then need to move into the realm of conjecture to determine how much more powerful Goku and Vegeta were at the start of the Buu arc in comparison to the end of the Cell arc.

Were Goku or Vegeta powerful enough at this point to be able to defeat Android 17 at base? I would be inclined to think that yes, they were - as it would be concurrent with the usual snowballing of the power levels of the Saiyans that takes place between sagas. Maybe another way of thinking about it would be: "Would Goku or Vegeta need to become a Super Saiyan to defeat Android 17 having had 7 years of intense training after defeating Cell, at which point they were already at a level of ability far above that of 17's strength?"

I think your not taking to account that small gains in their base forms equate to larger ones in the SSJ form. The Saiyan's would never have to be stronger than 17's strength considering on the massive gains they get from the SSJ form. If we look at it this way:

Base Goku: 3 million.
SSJ Goku: 150 million.

Android 17(For arguments sake): 300 million.

Base Goku: 7 million.
SSJ Goku: 350 million.

^As you can see above Goku would only need to increase his base by a couple of million to be stronger than Android 17 who is double his strength in SSJ. This is why I believe that after the Namek arc gains became smaller as the SSJ form more than makes up for their gap between enemies. If they continued to receive large power increases in the story why would things like Piccolo fusing with Kami even phase Vegeta? He would just power past him in no time at all anyway. Also why is it that Piccolo was smashing about Android 20 whereas an angered Goku's punch did nothing at all to him? Goku was stronger than Piccolo in the Namek arc but Piccolo seems to be stronger than Goku's base power just by going off of that feat.

Lets also consider that Piccolo has made vast improvements throughout the story which should have placed him above Goku but Goku has had the advantage in one scenario or another to get past him.

WAYS THAT GOKU HAS SURPASSED PICCOLO IN POWER
King Piccolo Arc: Super Holy Water.
23rd Tournament Arc: Special training from Kami.
Saiyan Arc: Special training from Kaio + 10x gravity.
Namek Arc: Gravity training and abuse of Saiyan healing boosts. (Then Super Saiyan was just overkill)
Androids Arc: Super Saiyan.
Cell Arc: Super Saiyan "Grades," then Full-Power Super Saiyan.

^As you can see from the quote I took from Kaboom Goku has always been stronger in one regard or another because he has had something to help push him that little bit further than Piccolo. However, flat out, Piccolo is the character who's received the largest gains without the "underhandedness" of plot devices(You know, apart from the whole fusion stuff). Also Piccolo was the only other character, apart from Trunks and Vegeta, in the Cell Games arc to put up a fight against the Cell Jr's. I really don't think any of the base Saiyan's could fight against the Cell Jr's even after the 7 year gap.

[Saiga]

Piccolo wasn't shown or said to be putting up a fight against the Cell Jrs in the manga, so that will always be nothing but fan conjecture.

[Hitiro]

Piccolo wasn't shown or said to be putting up a fight against the Cell Jrs in the manga, so that will always be nothing but fan conjecture.

Actually, he was. If you check over the manga again he was still standing along with Vegeta and Trunks. Also I believe someone brought this up before but the line where Cell says about Vegeta and Trunks being the only one to hold their own is actually not totally accurate to the Japanese version. The way it is written in Japanese is that Vegeta and Trunks are mentioned as "examples" and that there are others who are handling themselves. Seeing as Piccolo is the only other fighter left standing before Gohan transforms into a SSJ2 and takes the Cell Jr's down it must be him.

[Saiga]

Piccolo wasn't shown or said to be putting up a fight against the Cell Jrs in the manga, so that will always be nothing but fan conjecture.

Actually, he was. If you check over the manga again he was still standing along with Vegeta and Trunks. Also I believe someone brought this up before but the line where Cell says about Vegeta and Trunks being the only one to hold their own is actually not totally accurate to the Japanese version. The way it is written in Japanese is that Vegeta and Trunks are mentioned as "examples" and that there are others. Seeing as Piccolo is the only other fighter left standing before Gohan transforms into a SSJ2 and takes the Cell Jr's down it must be him.

Standing on his feet doesn't mean he's fighting evenly. He could still have the shit kicked out of him, like when Goku/Piccolo vs Raditz were losing badly but still on their feet most of the fight. And no, you're misinterpreting the Japanese line. It leaves room for others, but it doesn't mean there has to be others. The line could just mean "only Vegeta and Trunks". Nothing indicates Piccolo was fighting evenly. There is room for it, but that's not the same thing.

[Hitiro]

Standing on his feet doesn't mean he's fighting evenly. He could still have the shit kicked out of them. And no, you're misinterpreting the Japanese line. It leaves room for others, but it doesn't mean there has to be others. The line could just mean "only Vegeta and Trunks". Nothing indicates Piccolo was fighting evenly. There is room for it, but that's not the same thing.

I'm not saying he's fighting evenly with the Cell Jr but he is still holding his own. Everyone else is on the floor by this time and I see no reason as to why this Cell Jr would be treating Piccolo any different from the other Cell Jr's.

[Saiga]

Standing on his feet doesn't mean he's fighting evenly. He could still have the shit kicked out of them. And no, you're misinterpreting the Japanese line. It leaves room for others, but it doesn't mean there has to be others. The line could just mean "only Vegeta and Trunks". Nothing indicates Piccolo was fighting evenly. There is room for it, but that's not the same thing.

I'm not saying he's fighting evenly with the Cell Jr but he is still holding his own. Everyone else is on the floor by this time and I see no reason as to why this Cell Jr would be treating Piccolo any different from the other Cell Jr's.

Still doesn't mean he's holding his own just because he's on his feet. It only suggests that he's stronger than the piss-weak humans - which is already apparent.

[Hitiro]

Still doesn't mean he's holding his own just because he's on his feet. It only suggests that he's stronger than the piss-weak humans - which is already apparent.

Of course it means he's holding his own, otherwise he'd be on the floor with the rest of them and he'd be much more injured than he was. He was losing to the Cell Jr but he was still putting up enough of a fight to continue standing. I don't see why you think otherwise. Goku is also a lot stronger than the humans, even with him being exhausted from the fight with Cell, and he is on the ground too.