Tori-Toyo Free Talk Vol. 2

Toyotarō:
What was your starting point for creating the “Future Trunks Arc”?

Toriyama:
I think I started by going “let’s change things up a bit.”

Toyotarō:
I was shocked when I first read your original draft. I had thought of gods as being absolutely good, so having one of them turn evil raised the tension. The sense of tension flowing from the story from that point onward was incredible. I think it’s tough to make things tense in a Dragon Ball story. But setting the fight in the alternate “future” where there are no Dragon Balls creates a crazy sense of tension, since obviously nobody can come back to life if they die… And before that, when the story starts you don’t even know the enemy’s true identity. Zamasu’s personality was also something we hadn’t seen before. The villains of Dragon Ball are typically absolutely evil, so there’s nothing wrong with defeating them, but Zamasu was a slightly more complicated case of “warped justice”.

Toriyama:
At his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this “Future Trunks arc” you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks’ inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I’m not very good at depicting the characters’ psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story (laughs).

Toyotarō:
Majin Boo doesn’t have that sort of psychological conflict.

Toriyama:
Right! Frankly, I even found Cell to be a bit of a hassle (laughs). With enemies it’s easier to just have them be straight-up bad guys so that they can just get beaten up. In that sense, I think shōjo manga are really incredible, since they have to continuously depict a girl’s state of mind (laughs). I don’t think I could handle that!

Toyotarō:
It’s increcibly difficult since things pile up and get more and more complicated. Even I had serious doubts about whether I had properly conveyed Zamasu’s state of mind. Did I do it right…?

Toriyama:
Don’t worry, you did great! It’s precisely because you drew it for me that the “Future Trunks arc” was able to be made! On my own, I doubt I would have been able to express Zamasu’s fall to the dark side.

Toyotarō:
Personally I think I just barely managed to pull it off, but it’s an honor for you to say that (laughs). To change topics, I have a question about the characters of the “Future Trunks arc”. I think the enemies this time around had a huge impact. With Goku Black in particular, how did you come up with the idea for him?

Toriyama:
It was something I wanted to try out just once. Something like “False Ultraman” or “False Kamen Rider”…

Toyotarō:
Oh, was that it?

Toriyama:
Yeah! I wanted to do “False Son Goku” (laughs).

Toyotarō:
“Goku Black” is a great name.

Toriyama:
Well, it’s like “Kamen Rider Black” (laughs).

Toyotarō:
It fits amazingly well! Of course, Goku Black was voiced by Masako Nozawa-san, but she speaks so politely… I suppose that comes from Zamasu? I hear the editorial office received fan letters from women saying how sexy that performance was (laughs).

Toyotarō:
That’s right. Ultimately things need to head towards the conclusion indicated by Toriyama-sensei‘s original draft, but during that process I want to give various characters things to do. Vegeta being stubborn shows off the appeal of his character, and makes the story more exciting. And of course I want to make Trunks look cool, and even Gowasu… basically I want each character to get the chance to shine. At times like that I depart slightly from the script, but I guess you could say I’m faithful to its essence.

Toriyama:
I welcome it! After all, you know far more about Dragon Ball than I do (laughs).

Toyotarō:
Well, my goal is to be the No. 1 fan (laughs). Still, it’s not just about my desire to give various characters a chance to shine; there are also times when this sort of thing is necessary to arrive at the goal you’ve indicated, Toriyama-sensei. For instance, if the goal is for Goku to have a direct showdown with Zamasu¹ at the end, I can’t simply have Goku reach that point in peak condition. There needs to be various twists and turns before the two can face off against each other. This time around in the “Future Trunks arc”, there were many such twists and turns that I created… though I was a bit uncertain about them…

Toriyama:
No, it’s better that way! I think it’s better to let your individuality as an author shine through, rather than just follow the path I set down for you. It would be unbalanced if it were all just my ideas, so it’s better like this.

Toyotarō:
While I tried not to take things too far afield, I certainly did get to use many of my own ideas at points. Like thinking “wouldn’t it be interesting if Trunks trained in the Kaiōshin Realm, and had healing powers?” (laughs)

Toriyama:
It’s definitely better that way.

Toriyama:
I supervised that. I remember (laughs). It was fun to see Toyotarō-sensei‘s ideas start coming out more and more.

Toyotarō:
Zamasu¹ actually wasn’t all that strong of a character in the original draft I received from Toriyama-sensei. Though immortal, his strength was such that two Super Saiyan Blues were more than enough to take him on. It’s precisely because of this that in the original draft things unfolded so that his “immortality” and “Potara time limit” became key, and Goku and Vegeta took turns fighting him. Goku and Vegeta didn’t fuse in the original draft. Their personalities made any fusion after the Majin Boo arc impossible. However, I wanted to meet the readers’ expectations… And so, I made a scenario where “even if they shouldn’t really fuse, now they have absolutely no choice but to fuse”.

Toriyama:
I think it was good!

Toyotarō:
That’s why I thought and thought until the rough draft came together… It was the most fun and also the most stressful time. But once that got the OK, it was a fun job after that!

Toriyama:
Most of the time I gave the rough drafts for the “Future Trunks arc” the OK right off the bat!

Toyotarō:
I’m very glad to hear that. Still, I was also glad when you’d occasionally give advice. I was like, “He really did read it!” (laughs)

Toyotarō:
No, I was truly happy.

Toriyama:As far as his illustrations go, previously it always seemed as if he was chasing after my Dragon Ball. However, recently his own colors have started to emerge, and I think it’s made for a definite improvement!

Toyotarō:
Oh, I’m much obliged.

Toriyama:
Let’s see… if I have to say something else, then I guess it’s that you’re too careful! Particularly with battle scenes, it might actually be good to cut corners a bit.

Toyotarō:
Battle scenes are really difficult, and I’m always fretting over them…

Toriyama:
I had trouble drawing fights, too. But sometimes drawing them with a rough touch can produce good results, oddly enough. That’s why it’s important to cut corners (laughs). That’ll be perfect!

Toyotarō:
I’ll keep that in mind!