The strongest earthling

[Lord Beerus]

Considering that it was confirmed by Toriyama himself that Krillin is the strongest earthling, what are your feelings on this? Do you find this accurate or do you dispute it?

Personally, I've always thought that Tien's strength has been overrated over the years because of that one "feat" where he stopped Cell for a few seconds and deflected a ki blast from Buutenks, so I'm glad in a way that Toriyama has put Tien in his place and has given Krillin the credit he deserves.

[Kaboom]

Guess I'll just quote myself.

A straightforward statement from the manga says Kuririn's the strongest Earthling, the guides and new promotional material all say Kuririn's the strongest Earthling, and even the author personally says Kuririn's the strongest Earthling. The same things all treat and group Tenshinhan as an Earthling too. Nothing exists to contradict any of them. Therefore Kuririn is stronger than Tenshinhan. Period.

The last time they were directly and tangibly compared was during the Saiyan arc, and even then their battle powers were almost equal, with Kuririn already rapidly closing the previously large gap between them. The way things were going, he was already on-track to surpass Tenshinhan even BEFORE receiving a massive, dormant power-unlocking boost from the Grand Elder of Namek.

Tenshinhan's oh-so-impressive "feats" during the Cell and Boo arcs involved the Kikoho, an incredibly potent attack much stronger than Ten himself. So if you want to claim that they somehow indicate that he's stronger than Kuririn, you'd have to prove that Kuririn couldn't do the same things if he used the Kikoho as well, which is impossible.

Since nothing in the manga goes against it, there's also no good reason to doubt the official 75,000 number for Kuririn when he fought Freeza, beyond simply not WANTING to think he's that strong, because one WANTS him to be weaker to support the baseless idea that Tenshinhan surpassed him.

There is ZERO worthwhile reason to fly in the face of the manga, guides, and author, and insist that Tenshinhan somehow must be stronger than Kuririn. There's only shallow surface-level judgment ("The tall and buff guy who kept training MUST be stronger than the short guy who retired!"), or just plain ol' fashioned fanboyism for Tenshinhan.

Everything with an opinion on the "debate" says in no uncertain terms that Kuririn is stronger than Tenshinhan, at least as of the Majin Boo arc and the new post-Boo material. Since Kuririn and Tenshinhan aren't Saiyans, their age will almost certainly start to affect them around this time too, and stunt any progress either one of them would make. So depending on just how much stronger Kuririn was, it's unlikely that their comparative standing will ever change.

[Hellspawn28]

I think people think that tien is the strongest human before Uub because she has shown to keep on training and people think that Kuririn stop training after the Cell games. Having Kuririn be the strongest is fine by me.

[ZazamPow]

Krillin and Tienshinhan are both two of my favorite characters, but IMO the series always seemed to portray Tien as the more powerful of the two. In the Cell Arc, when Toriyama needed someone to hold off Cell while 18 escaped, it didn't have to be Tien. The Saiyans were busy and the Namek was KO, meaning he had to resort to the next strongest guy -- he chose Tien, not Krillin, indicating that Tien was the stronger of the two in his mind at the time, and I assume he only forgot about that when he mentioned Krillin being the strongest Earthling. This theory is also supported by the fact that Tien tried and failed to fight the Androids while Krillin didn't even bother, and in the anime when Imperfect Cell was about to kill Krillin, the cavalry of Piccolo and Tien came in and forced him to run off. If Tien wasn't supposed to be strong, they wouldn't have bothered to include him with Piccolo.

I mean, objectively speaking, all evidence points to Tien being stronger. He was introduced stronger than Krillin, and he never stopped training while Krillin did. He has the feats, he just doesn't have the statements.

[Luso Saiyan]

Do you find this accurate or do you dispute it?

I don't know how one could dispute something that doesn't contradict anything.

[fadeddreams5]

Personally, I've always thought that Tenshinhan's strength has been overrated over the years because of that one "feat" where he stopped Cell for a few seconds and deflected a ki blast from Buutenks...

It's not so much that. Tien started out as a villain who curbstomped Yamcha (when he wasn't fodder) and defeated Goku in the very tournament he beat Krillin. Luck or not, he won. In the Piccolo Daimao saga, Tien may not be a match for Drum or Piccolo, but out of the good guys, he is clearly the strongest and likely would not have lost to Tambourine. In the final tournament, Goku and Tien finally settle their differences, but based on feats, newly acquired powers, and the way he's portrayed, Tien is clearly superior to Krillin. Face it, the guy was the original Vegeta.

So fast forward to DBZ, and while Krillin has some impressive feats (saibaman massacre, kienzan, etc.) and power-ups, he's constantly treated as a joke and even retires from fighting. Tien, meanwhile, still possesses his serious demeanor and continues to train hard. The guy pushed back a being thousands of times stronger than a SSJ, something Krillin could never even dream of.

So basically, yeah, Krillin is the strongest since it's officially confirmed. We can't argue against the word of the creator. But guess what? That doesn't make it any less bullshit. Krillin is the strongest because Toriyama favors him more and wants him to be. But that's about it. Based on the actual source material, he shouldn't be, and anyone should be able to see that.

[Kamiccolo9]

I mean, objectively speaking, all evidence points to Tenshinhan being stronger. He was introduced stronger than Krillin, and he never stopped training while Krillin did. He has the feats, he just doesn't have the statements.

First Form Freeza has better feats than Perfect Cell.

Feats don't really matter when there are direct statements that indicate otherwise.

[ZazamPow]

I mean, objectively speaking, all evidence points to Tenshinhan being stronger. He was introduced stronger than Krillin, and he never stopped training while Krillin did. He has the feats, he just doesn't have the statements.

First Form Freeza has better feats than Perfect Cell.

Feats don't really matter when there are direct statements that indicate otherwise.

True, but portrayal is another thing, and IMO Tien has always been portrayed as stronger.

[Lord Beerus]

It's not so much that. Tenshinhan started out as a villain who curbstomped Yamcha (when he wasn't fodder) and defeated Goku in the very tournament he beat Krillin. Luck or not, he won. In the Piccolo Daimao saga, Tenshinhan may not be a match for Drum or Piccolo, but out of the good guys, he is clearly the strongest and likely would not have lost to Tambourine. In the final tournament, Goku and Tenshinhan finally settle their differences, but based on feats, newly acquired powers, and the way he's portrayed, Tenshinhan is clearly superior to Krillin. Face it, the guy was the original Vegeta.

[rereboy]

Its a fact that Krillin is stated as stronger.

However, what makes most sense in the context of the manga is for Tenshinhan to be stronger.

Krillin last measurable indication of power in the manga was when he double-teamed with Gohan to fight a 20 something thousand Ginyu-Goku and they were having trouble with him. After that, Freeza dwarfs them all and Gohan's rage boosts prove to be much stronger than Krillin so we no longer can guess his progression from there.

And after Namek Krillin has no more noticeable feats.

As for Tenshinhan, he was stronger than Krillin from the start, and up until the Saiyan arc for sure. In the Namek arc, Krillin had some advantages over him, but Tenshinhan didn't stand still and he was actually the fighter who spent most time at Kaio's. Add to that fact that Krillin had trouble double-teaming a fighter in the 20 thousand range right before fighting Freeza, that Krillin doesn't have zenkais, and that Krillin missed out on Kaio's training, and we realize that there's no indication in the manga that Tenshinhan had that big of a gap between him and Krillin to catch up.

Besides that, in the android arc Krillin did nothing of worth fighting wise and he was actually the only one who was scared enough to not engage the androids. Meanwhile Tenshinhan was able to immobilize imperfect Cell, a better feat than anything Krillin did after Namek.

After the Cell arc, Krillin actually retired while Tenshinhan always kept training. And in the Buu arc, while Krillin did nothing, Tenshinhan stopped a ki blast from Gotenks-Buu and was complimented on his power by Gotenks-Buu.

The only thing in the manga that even remotely suggests that Krillin is superior to Tenshinhan is Yamcha's quote, and even though its undeniable that its a statement of fact in-universe and thus its true that Krillin is stronger, the fact remains that, due to all that I said, what makes most sense in the context of the manga and how things are portrayed is for Tenshinhan to be stronger at the end of the manga.

I believe it was a bad move to state Krillin as stronger and I believe that it was mainly due to out of universe reasons (how much Krillin is loved).

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

The Saiyans were busy and the Namek was KO, meaning he had to resort to the next strongest guy -- he chose Tenshinhan, not Krillin, indicating that Tenshinhan was the stronger of the two in his mind at the time, and I assume he only forgot about that when he mentioned Krillin being the strongest Earthling.

Or because Krillin doesn't posses the Kikoho? And he was already being used to get the remote from Bulma? That feat is not comparable at all and not indicative of anything.

This theory is also supported by the fact that Tenshinhan tried and failed to fight the Androids while Krillin didn't even bother

That's not a comparison at all, both are far weaker than No.17, Krillin is just a bigger coward, or Tenshinhan is more reckless, not defining of strenght at all.

and in the anime when Imperfect Cell was about to kill Krillin, the cavalry of Piccolo and Tenshinhan came in and forced him to run off. If Tenshinhan wasn't supposed to be strong, they wouldn't have bothered to include him with Piccolo.

You're using the anime to help your case? Really? The same anime that showed the SSJ kids tussling with No.18 and not one-shotting her?

I mean, objectively speaking, all evidence points to Tenshinhan being stronger.

No it doesn't. The author, characters and promotional material all say Krillin is stronger. Contradicted by nothing.

He was introduced stronger than Krillin, and he never stopped training while Krillin did. He has the feats, he just doesn't have the statements.

Vegeta was also introduced stronger than Goku. Training doesn't determine power, plot does. The characters are as strong as Toriyama wants them to be. Tenshinhan's feats are in no way comparable. At all. I'm still amazingly surprised people continue to use this excuse.

[rereboy]

I mean, objectively speaking, all evidence points to Tenshinhan being stronger. He was introduced stronger than Krillin, and he never stopped training while Krillin did. He has the feats, he just doesn't have the statements.

First Form Freeza has better feats than Perfect Cell.

Feats don't really matter when there are direct statements that indicate otherwise.

You do realize that he is not denying that its a fact that Krillin is stronger since it was stated, right? He is just saying that it wasn't the choice that makes most sense.

[ZombieVito]

Krillin last measurable indication of power in the manga was when he double-teamed with Gohan to fight a 20 something thousand Ginyu-Goku and they were having trouble with him.

Nope. Gohan even laughed at Ginyu's Ki attacks and Krillin easily kept up with him.

[Dyno]

Oh my gosh... We got Devastator here!

[Kamiccolo9]

I mean, objectively speaking, all evidence points to Tenshinhan being stronger. He was introduced stronger than Krillin, and he never stopped training while Krillin did. He has the feats, he just doesn't have the statements.

First Form Freeza has better feats than Perfect Cell.

Feats don't really matter when there are direct statements that indicate otherwise.

You do realize that he is not denying that its a fact that Krillin is stronger since it was stated, right? He is just saying that it wasn't the choice that makes most sense.

You do realize that I never accused him of saying that Tenshinhan was stronger, right? I'm just saying that any "feats" portrayed in the manga are overruled by direct statements that flat-out tell us the opposite.

[rereboy]

Krillin last measurable indication of power in the manga was when he double-teamed with Gohan to fight a 20 something thousand Ginyu-Goku and they were having trouble with him.

Nope. Gohan even laughed at Ginyu's Ki attacks and Krillin easily kept up with him.

They were two on one and they weren't succeeding in taking him down, which means that they weren't stronger than his 20 something power level, which makes this fight the last measurable indication of Krillin's top power. After that we can only guess but we must remember that Krillin doesn't have Zenkais or rage boosts like Gohan.

[fadeddreams5]

It's not so much that. Tenshinhan started out as a villain who curbstomped Yamcha (when he wasn't fodder) and defeated Goku in the very tournament he beat Krillin. Luck or not, he won. In the Piccolo Daimao saga, Tenshinhan may not be a match for Drum or Piccolo, but out of the good guys, he is clearly the strongest and likely would not have lost to Tambourine. In the final tournament, Goku and Tenshinhan finally settle their differences, but based on feats, newly acquired powers, and the way he's portrayed, Tenshinhan is clearly superior to Krillin. Face it, the guy was the original Vegeta.

y u gotta vaporize me tho?

[rereboy]

You do realize that I never accused him of saying that Tenshinhan was stronger, right? I'm just saying that any "feats" portrayed in the manga are overruled by direct statements that flat-out tell us the opposite.

Since he admits himself the validity of the statement that says he is stronger, which means that he accepts that the statement overrules feats as a statement of truth for Krillin being stronger, what you said was never in question. Thus, you pointing out that statements overule feats, something already admitted by him, is rather pointless.

His point was another all-together, namely that, excluding that one statement, what makes most sense in the context of the manga and what is portrayed, is for Tenshinhan to be stronger, and, therefore, the decision to state Krillin as stronger was a bad choice.

[Kamiccolo9]

You do realize that I never accused him of saying that Tenshinhan was stronger, right? I'm just saying that any "feats" portrayed in the manga are overruled by direct statements that flat-out tell us the opposite.

Since he admits himself the validity of the statement that says he is stronger, which means that he accepts that the statement overrules feats as a statement of truth for Krillin being stronger, what you said was never in question. Thus, you pointing out that statements overule feats, something already admitted by him, is rather pointless.

His point was another all-together, namely that, excluding that one statement, what makes most sense in the context of the manga and what is portrayed, is for Tenshinhan to be stronger, and, therefore, the decision to state Krillin as stronger was a bad choice.

If my point was, as you say, pointless, then you continuing to address said point is also pointless.

As it stands, I pointed out something that was not explicitly stated in his post. If you disagree with my content, then say so. If not, then I'm not sure what you are complaining about, since the end result is me reinforcing what was already said, and you making a deal out of....what, exactly?

[Luso Saiyan]

I'm just saying that any "feats" portrayed in the manga are overruled by direct statements that flat-out tell us the opposite.

There's nothing in the manga that says or shows anything that contradicts the statement anyway.