Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 18 - Official Discussion Thread

[Noah]

Spoiler:

A freaking bizarre episode, I can’t put it any other way...

• The SSJ3 Goku vs. Gomah fight started off pretty interesting. I found it funny how Duu tried to mimic SSJ3 and, for a brief moment, actually managed to fight decently too

• Can we already say Neva is an even bigger plot device than Whis? Dude straight-up made Goku ascend into some “never-before-seen” primal form with his magic?

• If DAIMA’s only goal was to pay tribute to GT, they could’ve made that clearer instead of just dropping hints throughout the series

• SSJ4—or whatever the hell they decide to name this form—is just unacceptable to me. It makes no sense from a creative standpoint, it’s just there to generate hype with ZERO substance

• Dragon Ball has never cared about its own CANON, but I feel like today they gave the biggest MIDDLE FINGER possible to that entire debate

• Or they might edit DBGT episode #35 to add a line where Goku says, “I have a feeling I did this before...”

• Rant over... well, there’s no new DB series without a new transformation, so that's check. I just wish it was something more original

• Vegeta being useless in a final battle once again, no big news

• Considering the Tamagami created by Neva are guardian beings somewhere between SSJ2-3 in strenght, it was kinda obvious Porunga would be strong too

• And look at that, he’s RED! Yet another GT reference—who would’ve thought… At this point, I’m honestly surprised Toriyama liked this “side story” so much that he pulled so many elements from it into a script he actually wrote

• So, we finally got the big reveal about Glorio being a traitor, but honestly, I’m not that hyped for where the story is going now, cuz SSJ4 is back, with no proper buildup and a worse design—it completely killed my excitement for this series. But whatever, I’ll still watch it to the end… I mean, I didn’t even drop SUPER after that awful episode #064...

All fair points. If they were going to call the Dragon Porunga why is he red?

Is it weird to anyone else that everyone just decides Glorio is a traitor? Why don't they think he just went to the Dragon Balls to make a wish for the benefit of the team?

Ultimate Porunga would be a good (obvious) choice and about Glorio, well probably they are listening their conversation.

This is possibly distasteful speculation, but I wonder if the tonal parity between how the series started and where we are now has anything to do with Toriyama's deteriorating health and others taking on duties to write out the screenplays...

You know, I was thinking about that, I read a post on Reddit that made sense. It was something like:

'It feels like DAIMA’s second half is where Toriyama died and a worse writer who somehow treats scaling even worse, like Toyotaro, took over.'

I thought it was funny at first, but then it made me think. However, like others said before, Toriyama had full scripts ready for about 14-15 episodes of the series before he passed, and he probably had scripts for the remaining ones too. Okay, this story might be entirely his, but I still think someone might have suggested he do something based on GT.

Now, for the next episode, I expect them to go back to being adults, with Goku turning Super Saiyan 4 but still struggling to more Gomah’s Third Eye power-ups. Then maybe Vegeta also joins as Super Saiyan 3, and then Nevah does some magic on him to go SS4 too, and they fuse.

This feels like sacarsm as that's a great way to make something that's already bad even worse, congratulations lol

>what if we brought back Freeza (RoF)?
>what if Trunks came back for another time travel story?
>what if we brought back the Pilaf Gang?
>what if we paired Mai with Trunks (because making a new character is too much trouble)?
>what if we brought back Freeza again (ToP)?
>what if we made another Broly but as a girl (Kale)?
>what if we made Broly again?
>what if we made another Bardock flashback?
>what if we made another Cell (Cell Max)?
>what if we made another Cell (Moro) again?
>what if we made another Great Saiyaman (Goten and Trunks)?
>what if we made another SS2 Gohan (Beast)?
>what if we made GT again (Daima)?
>what if we made another Buu (Kuu, Duu)?
>what if we brought back SS4?
This franchise is so creatively bankrupt, holy shit.

THIS. SO MUCH!

People are going to be biased and mention things similar to the original run of the series, but that's not an excuse for so many RETREADS in this modern era of the franchise. Wasn't the Dragon Room supposed to help come up with more creative stories? Or was it just to give a voice to the fanbase and their fanfics about the series? Really pathetic. It's crazy to think that DAIMA makes me wish we had the return of SUPER, with Toei giving Toyotaro’s stories after the ToP arc a chance to be animated.

[Cybersai]

You can also add

> what if we brought back Master Roshi as a fighter again despite him retiring since the King Piccolo arc?

> what if we brought back Android 17 again (which technically GT did first) but make him a good guy this time

Technically you can say Frost was also another evil Freeza as if we didn't have enough already. Oh and it's only a matter of time now before Cooler somehow becomes canon. Watch.

[TechExpert2021]

You can also add the following:

> What if we bring back the Evil Dragons from GT?
> What if we bring back Raditz and Nappa from Z?

[omegalucas]

I don't really like the new SSJ4 design. Mainly on 3 areas: the forearms look strange with the transition between the fur and the skin, the hair and eyes don't contrast at all with the fur, and the lack of the blue belt kills the clothes' color scheme.

[Cybersai]

> What if we brought back Vegito again for Super Saiyan Blue?

> What if we made Gogeta canon and show all his Super Saiyan variants and blue?

Technically adult Gotenks isn't canon yet, and that should be the easiest thing to do if Trunks and Goten ever fuse properly in a new story.

[Zephyr]

I'm personally not against characters returning or "non-canon" villains being given a modern redesign/remake. What matters to me is how they are utilized in the story. For example, when Frieza came back in RoF, it amounted to absolutely nothing. They didn't attempt to be creative in how he obtained his new powers. Incidentally, Black Frieza is what Golden Frieza should have been, both in method obtained and design. His presence wasn't used to develop Vegeta's character. Frankly, if it was me directing, this would be Vegeta's movie, just like Super Hero was Gohan's, beginning with his time in bondage under Frieza (similarly to how the Broly movie begins in the past), and ending with his final battle against him. Instead, by the end of RoF, Frieza died, we got a bunch of asspull transformations that can be made into toys, and... well, that's it. It was a big nothing film like the old DBZ ones. Completely pointless reason to revive the character, besides making bank on nostalgia.

Compare this to Mecha Frieza, where he served a very different, but important role--a benchmark. We knew how powerful this guy was. He now returns even stronger and with a dad, who is close in power, only for both to be quickly eradicated by some unknown SSJ we learn traveled from the future to warn against an evil he cannot stop. This sets a terrifying tone. There was meaning to Frieza's return here.

If we take a look at Mercenary Tao's return, it's similar to how I mentioned Frieza SHOULD have been handled in RoF. We met this guy before meeting Tien, but later learned it was him who trained Tien to be a killer. When he returns, we are finally treated to an interaction and battle between him and his former student. It helps to emphasize the growth of Tien's character by that point.

Right, yeah exactly. I do agree that Freeza's return in RoF left a lot to be desired. I remember being extremely disappointed that it simply ended with him dying again. I also agree that his training method mentioned in the Granola arc (he found a Room of Spirit and Time) should have been what he did to get stronger during those infamous "four months", though I disagree that Black is any better than Golden design-wise. That said, another thing I remember from back then was having the expectation that RoF was going to lead to something, and thankfully it ultimately did. While it's very lackluster on its own, it helps to set up the Freeza we got in the Tournament of Power, which is probably the main thing I think justifies the entire revival era itself even existing (but that's probably a pretty unpopular opinion).

And yeah, I do also agree that Mecha Freeza served a great purpose. In the manga, the Namek arc didn't even get to completely end before he appeared, so it's not like he had time to fade into obscurity and feel like an uninspired choice to have return. Serves as a great introduction for Trunks, and helps to sell the danger of Gero's guys. But that's kinda my point. If you just list stuff off it can sound lame and uncreative.

On the topic of Tao Pai Pai and Freeza, one thing I noticed on a re-read of the Cell arc a few years back is how similar their returns in the manga are. Past antagonist who fired ki beams from their fingers, former superior to a current rival, returned with cybernetic enhancements (and was very quickly disposed of) at the start of an arc where the big bad is an evil green dude who really wants to throw hands with Goku in a tournament setting at the expense of just doing more direct and obvious villainy. Despite all of these similarities, both characters (and arcs) have a wealth of differences, so it's another case of being able to make something sound very uncreative if you just say the part that is similar.

People are going to be biased and mention things similar to the original run of the series

Nothing "biased" about trying to keep the discourse honest.

[Noah]

I don't really like the new SSJ4 design. Mainly on 3 areas: the forearms look strange with the transition between the fur and the skin, the hair and eyes don't contrast at all with the fur, and the lack of the blue belt kills the clothes' color scheme.

Still hate the form, but if they wanted to go full on nostalgia why not make it like this?



I would still not like it because the lack of bulding, but visually it would be better.

[ZeroNeonix]

I don't really like the new SSJ4 design. Mainly on 3 areas: the forearms look strange with the transition between the fur and the skin, the hair and eyes don't contrast at all with the fur, and the lack of the blue belt kills the clothes' color scheme.

Still hate the form, but if they wanted to go full on nostalgia why not make it like this?



I would still not like it because the lack of bulding, but visually it would be better.

Eh. It is a little weird that they went with the all-red look from the super powered version of SS4 from Super Dragon Ball Heroes. I don't mind it, though. I always liked the all-red look of SS4 Gogeta over the black of Goku or Vegeta. Personally, I was hoping they'd use Super Broly to canonize SS4, since I think that form suits him best, with his upbringing. And it would be a way to power him up without giving him God forms, which really don't suit him. They could still do that, but this would kinda take the wind out of Broly's sails if they go that route now.

[Venus]

I don't really like the new SSJ4 design. Mainly on 3 areas: the forearms look strange with the transition between the fur and the skin, the hair and eyes don't contrast at all with the fur, and the lack of the blue belt kills the clothes' color scheme.

Still hate the form, but if they wanted to go full on nostalgia why not make it like this?

Image.

I would still not like it because the lack of bulding, but visually it would be better.

See, this is something I would actually like much more even though it doesn't fix the lack of explanation behind this transformation.

[Cursed Lemon]

Wasn't the whole point of making them kids so that we wouldn't have to rely on all these forms to generate interest

[ZeroNeonix]

Wasn't the whole point of making them kids so that we wouldn't have to rely on all these forms to generate interest

I've heard FANS say that, but I never believed they'd resist the urge to use transformations. lol

[ZeroNeonix]

I don't really like the new SSJ4 design. Mainly on 3 areas: the forearms look strange with the transition between the fur and the skin, the hair and eyes don't contrast at all with the fur, and the lack of the blue belt kills the clothes' color scheme.

Still hate the form, but if they wanted to go full on nostalgia why not make it like this?

Image.

I would still not like it because the lack of bulding, but visually it would be better.

See, this is something I would actually like much more even though it doesn't fix the lack of explanation behind this transformation.

Nevah used magic to power up the Tamagami that fought Vegeta. I assume this is just an extension of that.

[QuakingStar]

Bullshit. Daima is an interquel from DB to DBS. There is zero statements anywhere saying it isn't part of the main story(Which would be DB and DBS.)

[Supersaiyan69]

So many haters lol.

Daima is goated, thankyou Toriyama!

[ZeroNeonix]

So many haters lol.

Daima is goated, thankyou Toriyama!

Nobody's telling you not to enjoy it. If you like it, you like it.

[Trouser]

So many haters lol.

Daima is goated, thankyou Toriyama!

So we should praise whatever the bullshit is thrown at us because it was (probably) written by Toriyama?

[Cursed Lemon]

I've heard FANS say that, but I never believed they'd resist the urge to use transformations. lol

Advice that should've been heeded.

[Hellspawn28]

It sucks that this form is going to be use once and never again unless the Super manga decides to bring it back. Ghoma being giant is not surprising considering that Baby also went Oozaru during his fight with Super Saiyan 4 Goku.

[MCDaveG]

I am a bit torn this week. The series is great when telling stories… there was virtually no story this week, just pandering. It’s the same problem I had with Granolah arc.
Just action figures fighting.

I have seen the rumors about SSJ4 a long time ago and was hoping it’s not true. Now I kinda get it. This show is definitely anniversary tribute. That’s why Gomah looks like Jiren, Vegeta got SSJ3, all the lore drops connecting it to the previous stories, now SSJ4.
I must say, that I am not a fan of that design. I didn’t like Ssj God that much and I am generally not big fan of SSJ Gelatos, that started in Super. One of the reasons why I didn’t mind that Daima might overrule Super and is direct sequel to DBZ.
Would be nice to get lore info from Neva, why Goku changed like this if he unlocked his potential. Otherwise it’s yet another asspull.
Now fusion is must (Vegeta will somehow pull the SSJ4 as well, with Neva’s help), to round up the tributes.

I am a bit dissapointed about the predictability tho. The show went from fun and new to uninspiring bouts.
Even tho the original show with it’s pacing got mocked for looong expositions with talks, screams and few bits of fighting, I actually liked those strategy discussions and introducing new techniques or analysis.
In this regard, episode 18 was super boring.
Also, Gomah is such uninteresting villain to be honest.
Might be on purpose as my thoughts since the climax started are: please, just kill him already and let’s be over it.

It makes sense, that the Dragon is Porunga, but again, why change the palette, not a fan of the new design, as it’s just weird recolor again just for the sake of it. I’d rather have some facelift or revamped design to make this Porunga more unique.

Same with SSJ4. GT design and colors are pretty much perfect. Why change something that isn’t broken for something worst and it being basically recolor for the worse.

I hope there will be some payoffs along the way, as we have just two episodes, with all that build up and world building, TOEI can really underwhelm.
I doubt that there will be any surprises or plot twists.
Probably ugly colored SSJ4 Vegito (or Gogeta?).
Haa as ving Vegito in SSJ4 might be considered a plot twist, as I can’t imagine playing video games from now on with Gogeta Z, Gogeta Super, Gogeta GT and Gogeta Daima ))

I am really dissapointed this week.
No story, nothing interesting, just the same ol’ punching and now I have to admit, that the choreography was kinda uninspired. I have enjoyed Super more in this regard, besides the crappy production and not so stellar choreography, as they kept the exposition and martial arts tropes (like Goku figuring out Jiren’s timeskip mechanism). This was supershallow and felt too much basic.

And that wish? Glorio wished on behalf of Goku and co. obviously. I have also noticed, that the last word resembled child, but I have no idea how Namekian works, as I doubt it is as developed as Klingon or Elvish from LOTR.
Would be nice to see Goku and co turned back and fighting as adults again

[TechExpert2021]

So many haters lol.

Daima is goated, thankyou Toriyama!

So we should praise whatever the bullshit is thrown at us because it was (probably) written by Toriyama?

Not all of them.

Look at Dragon Ball Minus. Fans dislike it for being a disgrace to the original Bardock. And the DBZ Bardock TV special is one of the best things to come out of Dragon Ball.

Toriyama from the 2010s and 2020s was not the same Toriyama from the 1980s and 1990s.