How long until Mr Popo gets cancelled?

[jjgp1112]

The people that were sold were captives of war between opposing countries and states. They were selling cultural and ethnic outsiders, not their "own people". Additionally, the concepts of "African" and "Black" did not even exist during that time period.

The notion that Africans sold their own people into slavery is a fallacy used to shift the blame of the slave trade onto its victims.

I never said the Atlantic slave trade was the Africans’ fault (it was one of the causes of their colonization) nor did I say that the slaves were of the same tribes as the slave owners.
I seem to have gotten the wrong impression that you were denying history.

Sorry I wasn't more clear. I wasn't calling you yourself out for anything, I was addressing that particular argument about African slave traders and how it's commonly used by many to misrepresent reality. I knew you didn't say those things.

(By the way, it's best to avoid use of the term "tribe" when discussing African peoples. Not only is it inaccurate, it's also a derogatory term with racist connotations born out of the colonial era.)

Why do other races like to speak for us so much?

In retrospect, I'm not sure what you were even getting at in this post. Looking back over the thread, I don't think that I saw anyone speaking for anyone else. Whether or not someone is personally offended by something doesn't negate something being offensive to a particular group.

No offense but you don't seem particularly interested in listening to the experiences of actual black people unless they confirm things you think are true. Between the thread last year where you kept arguing with me when I said most black people find "African American" to be awkward (and also excludes people of non-American origin) and now this thread where you're accusing all the actual black users of making assumptions, as if our assumptions don't have tons of first hand evidence behind them

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

No offense but you don't seem particularly interested in listening to the experiences of actual black people unless they confirm things you think are true. Between the thread last year where you kept arguing with me when I said most black people find "African American" to be awkward (and also excludes people of non-American origin) and now this thread where you're accusing all the actual black users of making assumptions, as if our assumptions don't have tons of first hand evidence behind them

I can confirm this is 100% true for me

[MyVisionity]

No offense but you don't seem particularly interested in listening to the experiences of actual black people unless they confirm things you think are true. Between the thread last year where you kept arguing with me when I said most black people find "African American" to be awkward (and also excludes people of non-American origin) and now this thread where you're accusing all the actual black users of making assumptions, as if our assumptions don't have tons of first hand evidence behind them

I don't think that any of this happened, in either thread. I can listen to other users and also argue with them. And I never accused anyone of any of those things.

What I do not like is the idea that a member of a particular group can speak for said group, nor the idea that they can just assume any and all things about other members of the group.

Just because a Black individual or individuals may not be offended by something, does not mean that the thing is not offensive to Black people. An individual or individuals is not the same as a single racial group.

[miguelnuva1]

This is starting to sound like the Speedy Gonzales argument when Americans got offended and wanted to cancel him bit Latin Americans were like, wait no we like Speedy.

I honestly felt if Popo was offensive to anyone it was going to be the Arab culture since he dresses and acts like a Genie.

[kemuri07]

This is starting to sound like the Speedy Gonzales argument when Americans got offended and wanted to cancel him bit Latin Americans were like, wait no we like Speedy.

I honestly felt if Popo was offensive to anyone it was going to be the Arab culture since he dresses and acts like a Genie.

Ummm what? Yes us Americans wanted to cancel a freaking 40 year old character. Gosh, Leftist twitter was just calling for Speedy Gonzales' destruction.

The problem with stuff like this is no one wants to actually talk about this and would rather use cartoon strawmans who are incapable of nuance. So let's get this out of the way.

1. I think it's absolutely reasonable that for any media being released in 2021, for someone to be like, "hey, maybe we tone down the negative stereotypes?" Society changes. The culture changes. What was once okay, is now not. And that's normal. There is a lot of shit that was totally fine years ago, that we would find reprehensible today (see: Black face). And I"m not even talking about slavery or anything like that. It's unreal how people don't understand this simple fact, and would rather push onwards through culture wars that waste everyones time.

2. The implication that racism is only important to the specific group it targets is incredibly problematic. Never mind that it treats us like a monolith with no real agency because apparently we all think the same, it shuts down White people who actually legitimately want to be allies. Yes, there's an argument to be made about white people who, while good intention, fail to actually listen to the very people they are trying to defend, but there's nothing wrong with a white person who calls out when they see fucked up shit. That's how this works--when the people who benefit the most from an unfair system fight against it, that is when we've truly succeeded. Instead, what I find gross is the assumption that only rich white people care about social justice, therefore its illegitimate because "real black folk" don't care about anti-racism. Never mind the implications of what that means is all kinda of fucked up, but it doesn't paint an accurate picture of social demographics. And that is that people are largely becoming more socially aware.


The problem with conversations like this, as well as culture wars in general, is that it only assumes two sides: Either you're offended or you're not. But what if I'm not offended, but I also understand the points and might even agree with some of them? You can have a nuance take on a complex subject because it is complex.

[DatHenson]

I honestly felt if Popo was offensive to anyone it was going to be the Arab culture since he dresses and acts like a Genie.

Middle Easterners don't care for depicting the middle east as "exotic and magical". On the contrary, they love it, are captivated by it, or just ignore it. Mr. Popo's Genie attributes are also fairly ignored in these convos anyway, so even less reason for Arabs to be "offended"

Related, Buu is a genie. And no one gives a cent

The bigger issue is Hollywood depiction since the 40s has treated Arabs as primitive savages (especially males) even till now, and 9/11 + the many wars over the decades made it worse. Though I'm seeing some positive rep in some shows lately, so that's nice

But like others said, these discussions typically go nowhere due to treating what's offensive or not in black/white light. There's a lack of understanding, or even input from minorities that could have helped make this contrast less

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

The problem with stuff like this is no one wants to actually talk about this and would rather use cartoon strawmans who are incapable of nuance. So let's get this out of the way.

This is an issue of online discussions/debates in general, especially. I'm coming from the perspective of a black person who isn't offended by Popo, although I see where the discussion comes from. Your point about dismissal from a few black people negating white people who want to be allies makes complete sense. A lot of underestanding on both sides of the fence could be gained, imho, with in-person discussion forums, I think. One thing about online debates is that, because it's the written word, it can paint people's stances as final and absolute. And it can lead to people on either end making their points more forcefully, which only widens the gap.

I'm not saying common underestanding can't be reached by these discussions, it's just difficult and rare on the internet. Heck, it's probably rare in general lol.

[miguelnuva1]

This is starting to sound like the Speedy Gonzales argument when Americans got offended and wanted to cancel him bit Latin Americans were like, wait no we like Speedy.

I honestly felt if Popo was offensive to anyone it was going to be the Arab culture since he dresses and acts like a Genie.

2. The implication that racism is only important to the specific group it targets is incredibly problematic. Never mind that it treats us like a monolith with no real agency because apparently we all think the same, it shuts down White people who actually legitimately want to be allies. Yes, there's an argument to be made about white people who, while good intention, fail to actually listen to the very people they are trying to defend, but there's nothing wrong with a white person who calls out when they see fucked up shit. That's how this works--when the people who benefit the most from an unfair system fight against it, that is when we've truly succeeded. Instead, what I find gross is the assumption that only rich white people care about social justice, therefore its illegitimate because "real black folk" don't care about anti-racism. Never mind the implications of what that means is all kinda of fucked up, but it doesn't paint an accurate picture of social demographics. And that is that people are largely becoming more socially aware.

And this can be just as much a help as a problem. Just in recent time a White person threw a fit about a Negan shirt that they considered to be racist and got the shirt banned. When African Americans saw the shirt little to none the saw shirt as racist at all.

An ally goes and helps you solve problems that you find yourself in but they don't go and start new problems for you.

Also where did you hear or what post made you feel that only rich white people care about social justice, I've never heard or gotten that take before.

[Adamant]

2. The implication that racism is only important to the specific group it targets is incredibly problematic. Never mind that it treats us like a monolith with no real agency because apparently we all think the same, it shuts down White people who actually legitimately want to be allies. Yes, there's an argument to be made about white people who, while good intention, fail to actually listen to the very people they are trying to defend, but there's nothing wrong with a white person who calls out when they see fucked up shit. That's how this works--when the people who benefit the most from an unfair system fight against it, that is when we've truly succeeded.

White Americans that "actually legitimately want to be allies" so bad they actively look for things they can be offended by on behalf of other people that aren't actually offended by them are some of the biggest racists out there. Cut that infantilizing shit out already.

[LoganForkHands73]

It's disingenuous to suggest that anyone here is seriously trying to speak on behalf of 100% of all black people ever, they're just giving anecdotal evidence of their own experiences. Like literally everyone else in this discussion. For a black person to speak their mind on this matter, are they seriously expected to get the CEO of the UBPOC (Universal Black Person Opinion Corporation) on loudspeaker as verified back up?

I see an awful lot of people (let's face it, mostly white) who love browbeating each other about "listening to POCs and minorities", but then refuse to put that into practice whenever someone they claim to speak for contradicts the narrative they've built up.

I have seen precisely one guy, speaking as a black person, decry Mr. Popo and therefore Dragon Ball as a whole as racist, which is a fair critique, deserves consideration. But in the same rant, IIRC, he also speculated that Akira Toriyama might secretly support white supremacy since Super Saiyans have blonde hair and blue eyes, which undermines the supposed allegory of Saiyans representing black slaves, so I don't think he was really the most well-informed individual in retrospect.

EDIT: Adding to the last paragraph to give the guy a fairer shake, I do honestly appreciate a bit of structural analysis, but the idea that Toriyama intentionally wrote Dragon Ball as an allegory for black American history feels extremely myopic, unfounded and a bit culturally arrogant/Americentric, as well as ignorant of the context that the Saiyans were portrayed as imperialistic savages by nature long before Freeza came to town. Is it impossible to consider that the Saiyan-Freeza arcs' themes of classism, slavery and imperialism reflect older aspects of human history beyond the Atlantic slave trade?

[Polyphase Avatron]

It's disingenuous to suggest that anyone here is seriously trying to speak on behalf of 100% of all black people ever, they're just giving anecdotal evidence of their own experiences. Like literally everyone else in this discussion. For a black person to speak their mind on this matter, are they seriously expected to get the CEO of the UBPOC (Universal Black Person Opinion Corporation) on loudspeaker as verified back up?

I see an awful lot of people (let's face it, mostly white) who love browbeating each other about "listening to POCs and minorities", but then refuse to put that into practice whenever someone they claim to speak for contradicts the narrative they've built up.

I have seen precisely one guy, speaking as a black person, decry Mr. Popo and therefore Dragon Ball as a whole as racist, which is a fair critique, deserves consideration. But in the same rant, IIRC, he also speculated that Akira Toriyama might secretly support white supremacy since Super Saiyans have blonde hair and blue eyes, which undermines the supposed allegory of Saiyans representing black slaves, so I don't think he was really the most well-informed individual in retrospect.

EDIT: Adding to the last paragraph to give the guy a fairer shake, I do honestly appreciate a bit of structural analysis, but the idea that Toriyama intentionally wrote Dragon Ball as an allegory for black American history feels extremely myopic, unfounded and a bit culturally arrogant/Americentric, as well as ignorant of the context that the Saiyans were portrayed as imperialistic savages by nature long before Freeza came to town. Is it impossible to consider that the Saiyan-Freeza arcs' themes of classism, slavery and imperialism reflect older aspects of human history beyond the Atlantic slave trade?

If I was going to compare Saiyans to a real-life civilization, I'd say they were like space Mongols.

[LoganForkHands73]

If I was going to compare Saiyans to a real-life civilization, I'd say they were like space Mongols.

Much more apt, for sure. Sometimes it feels like critical studies types refuse to acknowledge any history dating further back than the 19th century. At least, that's the stereotype I often see IRL.

[PurestEvil]

Lol, saying the Saiyans are parallels of Africans only implies that Africans are brutish genocidal savages.

[MasenkoHA]

I have seen precisely one guy, speaking as a black person, decry Mr. Popo and therefore Dragon Ball as a whole as racist, which is a fair critique, deserves consideration. But in the same rant, IIRC, he also speculated that Akira Toriyama might secretly support white supremacy since Super Saiyans have blonde hair and blue eyes, which undermines the supposed allegory of Saiyans representing black slaves, so I don't think he was really the most well-informed individual in retrospect.

EDIT: Adding to the last paragraph to give the guy a fairer shake, I do honestly appreciate a bit of structural analysis, but the idea that Toriyama intentionally wrote Dragon Ball as an allegory for black American history feels extremely myopic, unfounded and a bit culturally arrogant/Americentric, as well as ignorant of the context that the Saiyans were portrayed as imperialistic savages by nature long before Freeza came to town. Is it impossible to consider that the Saiyan-Freeza arcs' themes of classism, slavery and imperialism reflect older aspects of human history beyond the Atlantic slave trade?

If it’s the video essayist I’m thinking of yeah he completely disregarded the story’s Eastern roots. The idea that Dragon Ball is anti-black pro-white is a very americentric read on the story that ignored that it was written by a Japanese man who grew up in Japan creating a story for Japanese kids. As I recall he makes a connection with the whole monkey aspect but the Saiyans being monkey people is just a holdover from Goku’s Monkey King origin. And them losing their tails is not some hidden “black people becoming civilized by the standards of white society” message. But a product of Toriyama no longer wanting to draw the tail.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

It's disingenuous to suggest that anyone here is seriously trying to speak on behalf of 100% of all black people ever, they're just giving anecdotal evidence of their own experiences. Like literally everyone else in this discussion. For a black person to speak their mind on this matter, are they seriously expected to get the CEO of the UBPOC (Universal Black Person Opinion Corporation) on loudspeaker as verified back up?

I see an awful lot of people (let's face it, mostly white) who love browbeating each other about "listening to POCs and minorities", but then refuse to put that into practice whenever someone they claim to speak for contradicts the narrative they've built up.

It's definitely a bit problematic when any time someone black does speak about their experience, even claiming that they doubt a handful of other black people are offended, it's always responded to with, "Yeah, but you're not the spokeperson for all black people" essentially. I'm not sure such a person exists. There may be black people who are legitimately offended, but they haven't spoken up here thus far. Being black, I don't claim to know every other black Dragon Ball fan out there, but the ones I do know definitely didn't care one way or another about Popo. The thing is, even if we all agree that, yes, he is a racist caricature, I think you'll find many a POC who think that energies combating racism are best spent where it'll actually make a difference moving forward, not with an 80s manga/anime where the character isn't even significant.

Also, I'll have to recant one of my earlier replies to kemuri07's point that the black people here are discouraging white people from being allies. I've re-read it, and it doesn't sit right with me. The notion that black people are desperate for white allies is in itself very problematic and inherently infantilizes us. If a white person is a legitimate ally, he/she/they will be one regardless of if their position is agreed with or not. Being an ally isn't something you hang over someone's head with "Welcome me in, or I'm gone." Nor is it being the loudest mouthpiece claiming to completely understand said oppressed group. Being an ally means you know when to shut up and listen and that you're there for support no matter what.

I didn't mean that to come off harshly, but I had to address this.

[WittyUsername]

The idea that the Saiyans and Freeza are supposed to be an allegory for the Atlantic slave trade is absurd beyond all belief.

[miguelnuva1]

While I can see someone comparing Frieza him self to a white slavery especially what the fear he had and calling them Monkeys, the saiyans themselves were a cross between Mongols and Spartans.

Frieza didn't enslave them he employed and betrayed them. Frieza himself however has tones of a white supremacist.

[Polyphase Avatron]

The idea that the Saiyans and Freeza are supposed to be an allegory for the Atlantic slave trade is absurd beyond all belief.

It's not quite as ridiculous as the racist Cell evolution theory.

[LoganForkHands73]

If it’s the video essayist I’m thinking of yeah he completely disregarded the story’s Eastern roots. The idea that Dragon Ball is anti-black pro-white is a very americentric read on the story that ignored that it was written by a Japanese man who grew up in Japan creating a story for Japanese kids. As I recall he makes a connection with the whole monkey aspect but the Saiyans being monkey people is just a holdover from Goku’s Monkey King origin. And them losing their tails is not some hidden “black people becoming civilized by the standards of white society” message. But a product of Toriyama no longer wanting to draw the tail.

Yeah, you know the one. I rewatched it today, the dude scratches the surface by bringing up blaxploitation kung fu flicks as an origin for black DBZ fandom, as well as Journey to the West, but it's obvious that his knowledge is surface level at best and he's blinded by his own interests. He brings up that Freeza calls Saiyans "monkeys", but... considering that they actually are monkeys, with tails and Oozaru forms, they're literally not human, so equating that with black people is kinda problematic as well, though I guess you can make a connection purely through the slur, maybe. But yeah, he must really think that America is the centre of the universe to believe a Japanese mangaka is promoting white supremacy, lmao.

Aaanyhow, while the slur may have been inspired by anti-black racism, I feel that Freeza's brand of racism is probably more reflective of Sinosphere racial tensions (e.g. Japanese vs. Chinese, Japanese vs. Mongolian, Chinese vs. Tibet), with some Hitler or European fascist of your choice sprinkled in. Maximum the Hormone's F song explicitly draws parallels to China and North Korea, and Toriyama himself approves of the song, so I'd say that's a more valid interpretation.

As miguel and PurestEvil said, the allegory simply doesn't work because the Saiyans were already genocidal bastards, and Freeza never exactly enslaved or relocated them against their wills. They aren't portrayed victims in the same way as Africans. They willingly joined the Planet Trade (with a bit of coercion) to continue doing what they loved: fucking up foreign civilisations, while getting paid for it. Freeza only eradicated them because he knew they were too rowdy to ever be truly loyal to him. Aside from Vegeta's pride being wounded about having to take orders from someone else, there's no indication that the Saiyans at large were unhappy with the deal until Freeza turned on them. I'd bet money it's the old "Frieza totally made me evil" dubism that's poisoned the well.

It's definitely a bit problematic when any time someone black does speak about their experience, even claiming that they doubt a handful of other black people are offended, it's always responded to with, "Yeah, but you're not the spokeperson for all black people" essentially. I'm not sure such a person exists. There may be black people who are legitimately offended, but they haven't spoken up here thus far. Being black, I don't claim to know every other black Dragon Ball fan out there, but the ones I do know definitely didn't care one way or another about Popo. The thing is, even if we all agree that, yes, he is a racist caricature, I think you'll find many a POC who think that energies combating racism are best spent where it'll actually make a difference moving forward, not with an 80s manga/anime where the character isn't even significant.

Also, I'll have to recant one of my earlier replies to kemuri07's point that the black people here are discouraging white people from being allies. I've re-read it, and it doesn't sit right with me. The notion that black people are desperate for white allies is in itself very problematic and inherently infantilizes us. If a white person is a legitimate ally, he/she/they will be one regardless of if their position is agreed with or not. Being an ally isn't something you hang over someone's head with "Welcome me in, or I'm gone." Nor is it being the loudest mouthpiece claiming to completely understand said oppressed group. Being an ally means you know when to shut up and listen and that you're there for support no matter what.

I didn't mean that to come off harshly, but I had to address this.

Well said bro, needed to be said.

It's not quite as ridiculous as the racist Cell evolution theory.

I'm morbidly curious...

[Polyphase Avatron]

It's not quite as ridiculous as the racist Cell evolution theory.

I'm morbidly curious...

The idea is that the three main forms of Cell represent racial stereotypes and suggest a hierarchy of races.

Imperfect: Asian (smallest form, slanted eyes, although in some tellings I've also heard that it represents Jewish people, due to being sneaky and deceptive)

Semi-Perfect: Black (large, hulking and brutish, big lips)

Perfect: White (white face, elegant and well-sculpted features, superior attitude and capabilities)

It's really a stretch and I think it says more about the people who subscribe to the theory than it does about Toriyama and his character designs.