Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

[PurestEvil]

And replace them with what?

Something that doesn't waste our natural resources and manpower to spread US imperialism across the planet.

Care to be any more specific?

The Social worker brigade, of course! They will go through the most rigorous and intense training of rhetoric skills and be armed with their tongues in order to talk down anyone who is pointing a gun at them like they are the suspect’s mother. Surely, this is foolproof!

[Kunzait_83]

You don't need a peer-reviewed study to realize how braindead attempts to change media representation before changing the education system have flared up the Gamergate and Trump crowd in the past decade and helped move people in the center or center-left to the alt-right.

If I'm reading this right, this is a completely ignorant, cringeworthy, and hopelessly uninformed appraisal of how Gamergate and the alt-right were started and how they took off.

There were a whole enormous host of factors that lead to the creation of Gamergate and the MAGA/alt-right movements that were of VASTLY more paramount importance than something as ridiculous as "some pieces of media tried to convey more progressive messages in a clumsy or hamfisted manner".

I mean, think about how absurdly idiotic on its face that whole premise is: a bunch of shitty movies, TV shows, and video games were somewhat overbearing and stupid in how they conveyed what are, at their core, fairly common-sense Hallmark-level sentiments about inclusivity (that basically amounts to little more than "hey, uh, just so you know: women, black & brown people, as well as gay and trans people are just like, ordinary people the same as anyone else, so maybe just be nice to them and don't be a complete asshole to them just for them not being exactly like you"), and because of that, that somehow largely all by itself and with little to NO other context or other factors at play beyond that managed to single-handedly trigger (or at least be the predominant factor in triggering) a bunch of neckbeards and nerds on the internet into becoming Neo Nazis and joining hate & death cults.

If you sincerely believe that the prime onus of the blame for what primed the surge of online presence for things like Gamergate/MAGA is "Woke movies, TV and video games were too heavy handed and obnoxious, and that's what pushed people over the edge", then there is no nice way of saying this: you're an absolute fucking moron if you believe this, or anything that even comes vaguely close to approximating this notion.

Hell, there's even a well-known political cartoon that thoroughly mocks this entire "People being too woke pushed me from normal person to Nazi" rationale and line of thought (since its flogged out so depressingly often).

By this same logic, just about every cornball afterschool special from the 1970s on, along with all the of gobs and gobs of insipid, moronic 80s and 90s children's slop that so much of this community fetishizes and worships (ALL of which are every bit as thuddingly over-bearing and smothering in their good intentioned yet overly simplistic "just be nice to each other" moralizing as anything "woke" from the last ten years has ever been, if not way more so), would've all been pushing every single Gen X'er and millennial from the last 30/40 years into the indoctrinating arms of hate movements in droves since decades and decades ago.

Forget Gamergate: every Power Rangers fanboy on here would've been joining the nearest White Power movement all the way back in the 90s after just a few viewings of that show's shoehorned-in, over-the-top wholesome PSA's if THAT was really all it took to radicalize someone into throwing in with a violent hate group.

For Christ's sake, I'm someone who's stomach is left churning in revulsion probably WAY more so than most average folks are by that kind of maudlin, sappy shit in media (I couldn't even sit through E.T. as a kid without a vomit bag handy); and on top of that, I even have the "Cis Hetero White Male" royal flush when it comes to my own identity makeup.

And yet as anyone who's seen me post anything about social issues and politics on here in the past couple years can clearly surmise, I'm not exactly being pushed by any of this dumbass garbage into joining up with the MAGA movement, cyber-stalking rando women video game developers online, treating trans people like they're three headed aliens, storming the U.S. Capitol and attacking cops because the dipshit from The Apprentice lost an election, or marching in the streets with torches chanting "Jews will not replace us!" over some left activist's murdered corpse as a result.

These are things that people who are ALREADY severely damaged individuals - via a whole host of VASTLY more serious issues - are simply holding up and using as incredibly idiotic excuses and justifications for the vile crap that they're engaged with: actually buying into that framing and taking those things seriously as having directly contributed to or caused the radicalization of reactionaries is the height of gullible-ass stupidity.

"Woke media" isn't the cause for or substantive contributor towards someone's unhinged downward spiral into white supremacy and reactionary conservatism: its generally either the rinky-dink wafer thin rationalization that a reactionary might hide behind, or its just a byproduct of their own absurd stupidity and lack of critical introspection into the real roots of their own problems.

Among the litany of social and political factors that all lead to (and were vastly more critically important toward) the creation of Gamergate and the alt-right include and are in no way limited to:

1) The continued collapse and stratification of social safety nets, including basic healthcare, free education, affordable housing, livable wages, etc. all leading to increasing work hours, shrinking employment benefits, and a generally desperate, dog-eat-dog, survival of the fittest Darwinian hellscape of a late-stage capitalist dystopia. You can thank our wonderful, and in no way whatsoever hopelessly bought off*, political system for much of that.

*Note, that was indeed sarcasm.

2) By that same token: lack of access to incredibly basic mental healthcare, or access only to incredibly substandard, shitty mental healthcare. Combined, these first two leave most average, ordinary people over-worked/under-employed, over-stressed, poorly educated, and under constant, continuous pressure to just eek out basic economic survival day to day, with shrinking prospects for a bright future in front of them.

3) Both 1 and 2 combined also have lead to strain on families, leading to completely distant, disconnected home lives, with parents who are too overwhelmed and overworked to actually be proper parents to their kids. So we can also throw cold, dysfunctional, & alienating family and home lives into the mix.

4) Thoroughly eroded and gutted basic education standards over the past few decades (thank you George W. Bush and "No Child Left Behind", along with continued defunding/underfunding of public education going back even much, MUCH further) combined with a lack of affordable access to higher education. So things like incredibly basic (even recent) historical awareness and fundamental civic knowledge are largely out the window for most.

5) A ton of the online alt-right movement also tends to skew overwhelmingly toward people who are somewhere on the autism spectrum. This actually tracks with studies done by groups devoted to deradicalizing people from hate movements for the past few decades now, which show a tremendous tendency for people somewhere on the spectrum in being more pliable into being manipulated and taken advantage of by convincing/charismatic leaders and con artists, as well as due to increased isolation/alienation via poor social skills (further hampered by the above family & social safety net factors, since kids with autism also tend to do much better with it later on in life the sooner/earlier in life they get proper help and mental health assistance in living with it).

6) Increasingly gentrified and racially segregated white gated communities and suburbs being increasingly more common the further up the economic ladder you go, which accounts for a lot of the alt-right's more economically well-off members: countless studies done the past 50/60 years have continuously and conclusively shown that people's day to day social contact and how diversified or homogenized it is plays a tremendously large role in how they psychologically develop in their relationships, levels of empathy, and social skills with people of various minority groups. Hence why media representation of minorities actually on some level *does* matter for issues like this, since both very young little kids as well as socially withdrawn loner outcasts tend to form parasocial connections with fictional characters in mass media.

7) The increasing dominance of not just the internet into daily life, but moreover the continued takeover of how people find and disseminate information on the internet being increasingly left up to automated algorithms, which have a tendency to suck people down into warped conspiracy rabbit holes as well as keeping them trapped in a hermetically sealed and self-sustaining bubble of biased misinformation. To say nothing about how the internet (particularly the modern algorithm-poisoned internet) fosters parasocial relationships for socially isolated loners and outcasts who are slowly dying and deteriorating on the inside from lack of anything at all resembling any kind of healthy, diverse, or meaningful social interactions (again, see above).

And of course 8 ) Actual malicious, and wholly deliberate/intentional astroturfing of various online "nerd" communities (made up of people who fall into pretty much damn near ALL of the above baskets, in one combination or other) with literal Neo Nazi propaganda by literal white supremacist groups via funding from right wing/libertarian political think tanks hoping to recruit from a more youthful pool of potential voters (with right wing voters and activists having been stuck in an increasingly geriatric rut for quite some years prior).

So combine all of the above, and what kind of landscape do you get?

*Takes deep breath*

A whole generation's worth of (predominantly, but not solely, white and male) young people anywhere from early teenage to late 20s/early 30s who - in broad strokes - grew up in an environment that is socially isolating, cut off from contact with a lot of minority groups as a broader whole, who don't typically have very healthy or involved family/home lives and minimal real world friendships or relationships, who are coming into early adulthood with a positively bloodcurdling lack of basic education or societal awareness (and in many cases, without even a lot of fundamental developmental experience and life benchmarks under their belt), who are either overwhelmed and worn thin and ragged from economic misery and constant daily pressure on one end, or are incredibly pampered, sheltered, and spoiled rotten on the other end...

...most of whom are somewhere on the spectrum by and large (further kneecapping their already compromised social development) all spending MASSIVE amounts of time isolated and alone in their rooms day to day on their computers or phones, doomscrolling through social media & Chan image board, as well as mainlining Youtube videos as almost a surrogate replacement for any kind of meaningful real world social interaction...

...content which has largely been poisoned by a combination of a poorly thought through algorithm system that cares far more about continued clicks and user engagement (i.e. more ad revenue for the platform's owners and shareholders) than it does basic social responsibility, or the educational and mental health needs of the user, as well as psychotically far right wing political propaganda (pushed partly by a litany of right wing social media influencers and Youtube talking heads, some of them far less self-aware about what they're actually doing than others) injected into the mix by opportunistic white nationalists and their conservative corporate sugar daddies who saw an opening in this gigantic clusterfuck and took it.

*Aaaaaaaand exhales*

I'm not an expert, but I think that all of that (and a load of other important factors I don't even have the space to go into here) probably has far, FAR more to do with the sudden surge of Kawaiicaust Anime/Gamer Dork Nazis in the past 7 years or so than something like a crappy new Ghostbusters movie gender swapping its lead roles or a black guy getting cast as a Storm Trooper in Star Wars: the kinds of stuff which I can 1000% guaran-fucking-tee you that had it happened just a decade or two prior would've been given two fucks about by largely almost NO ONE on the planet.

A LOT of things can be looked to as part of the cause of the sudden rightward lurch of online nerds and geeks in the last decade or so: some crappy, godawful blockbuster movies and video games (that most people REALLY shouldn't be putting NEARLY so much of their emotional investment in in the first place) being more clunky and awkward than usual about how they center themselves around a non-white male character however, really isn't particularly high on that list at all.

And anyone who sincerely believes "No, actually my favorite cartoon/video game franchise suddenly being centered around a black lesbian in a slightly clumsy, clunky, awkward fashion is indeed prime motivator number one for why there's been such a reactionary/violently hateful swerve in nerd culture online"... I would sincerely, greatly recommend peeling yourself away from whatever Marvel movie, Shonen Jump anime/manga, or dense-ass RPG you're currently buried in and go pick up and read an actual goddamn (non-fiction) book about something that's historically/socially/politically/scientifically critical and substantive for once.

If humanity and civilization as we know it somehow survives most of the climate-related shit that's still coming our way, historians are doubtfully going to look back at this political and social period (ridiculous and absurd as it already is) and note "Ah yes, the 2010s: the time where the great 'Ghostbusters are now girls' incident and that Black Panther movie helped kick off a whole period of severe racial and societal turmoil."

[Yuji]

snip

I've noticed this trend where you completely misinterpret someone's point and then go on a self-aggrandizing and pompous tirade for half a page while making snarky "if the shoe fits" type of insults along the way. It would indeed be " ignorant, cringeworthy, and hopelessly uninformed" to claim that some gamers getting mad in their basements over Anita Sarkeesian directly lead to 2016 but that's not exactly what I said, is it? I said that the aggressive push for positive media representation in the late 00s and early 10s in traditionally male-centered hobbies without first addressing through a revamp of the school system the underlying biases that cause a) artists to represent minorities badly, and b) consumers to accept it as "normal," contributed to feelings of alienation and fear of inadequacy and replacement in a young, white male audience that inevitably led them down the alt-right pipeline. To deny this is to deny a lot of alt-righters account of how they even got recruited: watching "cringe SJW compilations" on Youtube leads directly into race realism and other nonsense.

Where does that alienation come from is a different question entirely, and you're entirely correct in your assessment (which, although correct, was completely unnecessary as I am probably farther left than you are despite your probable assumption that you're arguing against a right-winger, so I know this already and would make far more scathing criticisms about capitalism, industrialism and American democracy). But I didn't argue that a left-leaning 16-year old is getting radicalized by Ghostbusters 2016, only that the constant string of hamfisted attempts at pushing positive media representation will inevitably help bolster the alt-right if they're not handled with care. Let me illustrate my point: a young white man in his teenage years sees his favorite show gets rebooted with a diverse cast, his first thought process is "Oh? That's odd but I guess it's cool." Next week, he sees another favorite show of his recast the main character as PoC he thinks "Again? Well, if it's for diversity then that should be fine." After a month, his favorite videogame gets a sequel where the old young male protagonist he could relate to is replaced by a lesbian woman, now he starts to think "Why is this happening?" and he goes to Youtube to see if anyone has the answer. He finds videos of other people complaining about the same thing, either people in earnest questioning these dumb decisions, and bad faith actors trying to radicalize people by pointing to the fact that companies are trying to make money, that they don't care about the average consumer and that the people "in charge" want to "replace" them. Suddenly he thinks, "yeah maybe he's right, I can't relate to any piece of media coming out anymore, they must want me gone." Now even his favorite hobbies are reminding him of his inadequacies and insecurities and he understandably lashes out.

By the way, your analogy is flawed. There's a clear and marked difference between a general and universal "everyone get along together" saccharine message in media and a clear and deliberate attempt at appealing to current political trends and preoccupations by diversifying the cast or including explicitly leftist themes and messaging. One doesn't upset anyone and is a universal lesson in schools, churches and at home, the other is a deliberate attempt at upsetting the status quo, which, regardless of validity, will naturally raise some eyebrows and cause confusion and anger.

Now, if you at any point during this last paragraphs thought I was giving credence to the alt-right then that's on you for not trying to argue in good faith and being blinded in your attempts to dunk on someone for internet clout. I am merely illustrating how this push for representation in new media (both corporate reboots to appeal to a new demographic and earnest attempts by minorities to see themselves represented in their art) can spark someone's journey to radicalization. It doesn't start by watching TheQuartering on Youtube, they go to those channels because they consume the media first. It doesn't matter if they're right or wrong, or if this move to right-leaning positions has its origin in more complex, deep-rooted issues, this is what the left doesn't get, because to those people being converted, they see their problem as obvious and immediate and nobody is trying to educate them on the contrary. Very few people are saying "listen, young white men have had positive representation for ages and if you feel the effects of no representation because a few of your favorite franchises are taking a different turn, then you could understand why positive representation for minorities who have historically had none is necessary right now. Rest assured nobody is trying to replace you, there is still plenty of media with male leads you can relate to." Instead, the prominent, general attitude among young leftists is to say "yeah, fuck men and fuck white people, it's our time, diversity is our strength, white people bad, men bad, buzzwords buzzwords buzzwords." Combine that with the general gatekeeping and purity testing of the left and contrast it with the designed inclusivity and welcoming nature of the alt-right and there's no question why uneducated young men who see their favorite characters whom they related to being replaced by what they see as alien are flocking to the alt-right.

The unwillingness of the left not only to empathize but merely to understand the grievances of the other side is why ultimately the modern left is a fucking joke, too busy sniffing their own farts to enact any change.

[Spadexxione]

You don't need a peer-reviewed study to realize how braindead attempts to change media representation before changing the education system have flared up the Gamergate and Trump crowd in the past decade and helped move people in the center or center-left to the alt-right.

If I'm reading this right, this is a completely ignorant, cringeworthy, and hopelessly uninformed appraisal of how Gamergate and the alt-right were started and how they took off.

There were a whole enormous host of factors that lead to the creation of Gamergate and the MAGA/alt-right movements that were of VASTLY more paramount importance than something as ridiculous as "some pieces of media tried to convey more progressive messages in a clumsy or hamfisted manner".

I mean, think about how absurdly idiotic on its face that whole premise is: a bunch of shitty movies, TV shows, and video games were somewhat overbearing and stupid in how they conveyed what are, at their core, fairly common-sense Hallmark-level sentiments about inclusivity (that basically amounts to little more than "hey, uh, just so you know: women, black & brown people, as well as gay and trans people are just like, ordinary people the same as anyone else, so maybe just be nice to them and don't be a complete asshole to them just for them not being exactly like you"), and because of that, that somehow largely all by itself and with little to NO other context or other factors at play beyond that managed to single-handedly trigger (or at least be the predominant factor in triggering) a bunch of neckbeards and nerds on the internet into becoming Neo Nazis and joining hate & death cults.

If you sincerely believe that the prime onus of the blame for what primed the surge of online presence for things like Gamergate/MAGA is "Woke movies, TV and video games were too heavy handed and obnoxious, and that's what pushed people over the edge", then there is no nice way of saying this: you're an absolute fucking moron if you believe this, or anything that even comes vaguely close to approximating this notion.

Hell, there's even a well-known political cartoon that thoroughly mocks this entire "People being too woke pushed me from normal person to Nazi" rationale and line of thought (since its flogged out so depressingly often).

By this same logic, just about every cornball afterschool special from the 1970s on, along with all the of gobs and gobs of insipid, moronic 80s and 90s children's slop that so much of this community fetishizes and worships (ALL of which are every bit as thuddingly over-bearing and smothering in their good intentioned yet overly simplistic "just be nice to each other" moralizing as anything "woke" from the last ten years has ever been, if not way more so), would've all been pushing every single Gen X'er and millennial from the last 30/40 years into the indoctrinating arms of hate movements in droves since decades and decades ago.

Forget Gamergate: every Power Rangers fanboy on here would've been joining the nearest White Power movement all the way back in the 90s after just a few viewings of that show's shoehorned-in, over-the-top wholesome PSA's if THAT was really all it took to radicalize someone into throwing in with a violent hate group.

For Christ's sake, I'm someone who's stomach is left churning in revulsion probably WAY more so than most average folks are by that kind of maudlin, sappy shit in media (I couldn't even sit through E.T. as a kid without a vomit bag handy); and on top of that, I even have the "Cis Hetero White Male" royal flush when it comes to my own identity makeup.

And yet as anyone who's seen me post anything about social issues and politics on here in the past couple years can clearly surmise, I'm not exactly being pushed by any of this dumbass garbage into joining up with the MAGA movement, cyber-stalking rando women video game developers online, treating trans people like they're three headed aliens, storming the U.S. Capitol and attacking cops because the dipshit from The Apprentice lost an election, or marching in the streets with torches chanting "Jews will not replace us!" over some left activist's murdered corpse as a result.

These are things that people who are ALREADY severely damaged individuals - via a whole host of VASTLY more serious issues - are simply holding up and using as incredibly idiotic excuses and justifications for the vile crap that they're engaged with: actually buying into that framing and taking those things seriously as having directly contributed to or caused the radicalization of reactionaries is the height of gullible-ass stupidity.

"Woke media" isn't the cause for or substantive contributor towards someone's unhinged downward spiral into white supremacy and reactionary conservatism: its generally either the rinky-dink wafer thin rationalization that a reactionary might hide behind, or its just a byproduct of their own absurd stupidity and lack of critical introspection into the real roots of their own problems.

Among the litany of social and political factors that all lead to (and were vastly more critically important toward) the creation of Gamergate and the alt-right include and are in no way limited to:

1) The continued collapse and stratification of social safety nets, including basic healthcare, free education, affordable housing, livable wages, etc. all leading to increasing work hours, shrinking employment benefits, and a generally desperate, dog-eat-dog, survival of the fittest Darwinian hellscape of a late-stage capitalist dystopia. You can thank our wonderful, and in no way whatsoever hopelessly bought off*, political system for much of that.

*Note, that was indeed sarcasm.

2) By that same token: lack of access to incredibly basic mental healthcare, or access only to incredibly substandard, shitty mental healthcare. Combined, these first two leave most average, ordinary people over-worked/under-employed, over-stressed, poorly educated, and under constant, continuous pressure to just eek out basic economic survival day to day, with shrinking prospects for a bright future in front of them.

3) Both 1 and 2 combined also have lead to strain on families, leading to completely distant, disconnected home lives, with parents who are too overwhelmed and overworked to actually be proper parents to their kids. So we can also throw cold, dysfunctional, & alienating family and home lives into the mix.

4) Thoroughly eroded and gutted basic education standards over the past few decades (thank you George W. Bush and "No Child Left Behind", along with continued defunding/underfunding of public education going back even much, MUCH further) combined with a lack of affordable access to higher education. So things like incredibly basic (even recent) historical awareness and fundamental civic knowledge are largely out the window for most.

5) A ton of the online alt-right movement also tends to skew overwhelmingly toward people who are somewhere on the autism spectrum. This actually tracks with studies done by groups devoted to deradicalizing people from hate movements for the past few decades now, which show a tremendous tendency for people somewhere on the spectrum in being more pliable into being manipulated and taken advantage of by convincing/charismatic leaders and con artists, as well as due to increased isolation/alienation via poor social skills (further hampered by the above family & social safety net factors, since kids with autism also tend to do much better with it later on in life the sooner/earlier in life they get proper help and mental health assistance in living with it).

6) Increasingly gentrified and racially segregated white gated communities and suburbs being increasingly more common the further up the economic ladder you go, which accounts for a lot of the alt-right's more economically well-off members: countless studies done the past 50/60 years have continuously and conclusively shown that people's day to day social contact and how diversified or homogenized it is plays a tremendously large role in how they psychologically develop in their relationships, levels of empathy, and social skills with people of various minority groups. Hence why media representation of minorities actually on some level *does* matter for issues like this, since both very young little kids as well as socially withdrawn loner outcasts tend to form parasocial connections with fictional characters in mass media.

7) The increasing dominance of not just the internet into daily life, but moreover the continued takeover of how people find and disseminate information on the internet being increasingly left up to automated algorithms, which have a tendency to suck people down into warped conspiracy rabbit holes as well as keeping them trapped in a hermetically sealed and self-sustaining bubble of biased misinformation. To say nothing about how the internet (particularly the modern algorithm-poisoned internet) fosters parasocial relationships for socially isolated loners and outcasts who are slowly dying and deteriorating on the inside from lack of anything at all resembling any kind of healthy, diverse, or meaningful social interactions (again, see above).

And of course 8 ) Actual malicious, and wholly deliberate/intentional astroturfing of various online "nerd" communities (made up of people who fall into pretty much damn near ALL of the above baskets, in one combination or other) with literal Neo Nazi propaganda by literal white supremacist groups via funding from right wing/libertarian political think tanks hoping to recruit from a more youthful pool of potential voters (with right wing voters and activists having been stuck in an increasingly geriatric rut for quite some years prior).

So combine all of the above, and what kind of landscape do you get?

*Takes deep breath*

A whole generation's worth of (predominantly, but not solely, white and male) young people anywhere from early teenage to late 20s/early 30s who - in broad strokes - grew up in an environment that is socially isolating, cut off from contact with a lot of minority groups as a broader whole, who don't typically have very healthy or involved family/home lives and minimal real world friendships or relationships, who are coming into early adulthood with a positively bloodcurdling lack of basic education or societal awareness (and in many cases, without even a lot of fundamental developmental experience and life benchmarks under their belt), who are either overwhelmed and worn thin and ragged from economic misery and constant daily pressure on one end, or are incredibly pampered, sheltered, and spoiled rotten on the other end...

...most of whom are somewhere on the spectrum by and large (further kneecapping their already compromised social development) all spending MASSIVE amounts of time isolated and alone in their rooms day to day on their computers or phones, doomscrolling through social media & Chan image board, as well as mainlining Youtube videos as almost a surrogate replacement for any kind of meaningful real world social interaction...

...content which has largely been poisoned by a combination of a poorly thought through algorithm system that cares far more about continued clicks and user engagement (i.e. more ad revenue for the platform's owners and shareholders) than it does basic social responsibility, or the educational and mental health needs of the user, as well as psychotically far right wing political propaganda (pushed partly by a litany of right wing social media influencers and Youtube talking heads, some of them far less self-aware about what they're actually doing than others) injected into the mix by opportunistic white nationalists and their conservative corporate sugar daddies who saw an opening in this gigantic clusterfuck and took it.

*Aaaaaaaand exhales*

I'm not an expert, but I think that all of that (and a load of other important factors I don't even have the space to go into here) probably has far, FAR more to do with the sudden surge of Kawaiicaust Anime/Gamer Dork Nazis in the past 7 years or so than something like a crappy new Ghostbusters movie gender swapping its lead roles or a black guy getting cast as a Storm Trooper in Star Wars: the kinds of stuff which I can 1000% guaran-fucking-tee you that had it happened just a decade or two prior would've been given two fucks about by largely almost NO ONE on the planet.

A LOT of things can be looked to as part of the cause of the sudden rightward lurch of online nerds and geeks in the last decade or so: some crappy, godawful blockbuster movies and video games (that most people REALLY shouldn't be putting NEARLY so much of their emotional investment in in the first place) being more clunky and awkward than usual about how they center themselves around a non-white male character however, really isn't particularly high on that list at all.

And anyone who sincerely believes "No, actually my favorite cartoon/video game franchise suddenly being centered around a black lesbian in a slightly clumsy, clunky, awkward fashion is indeed prime motivator number one for why there's been such a reactionary/violently hateful swerve in nerd culture online"... I would sincerely, greatly recommend peeling yourself away from whatever Marvel movie, Shonen Jump anime/manga, or dense-ass RPG you're currently buried in and go pick up and read an actual goddamn (non-fiction) book about something that's historically/socially/politically/scientifically critical and substantive for once.

If humanity and civilization as we know it somehow survives most of the climate-related shit that's still coming our way, historians are doubtfully going to look back at this political and social period (ridiculous and absurd as it already is) and note "Ah yes, the 2010s: the time where the great 'Ghostbusters are now girls' incident and that Black Panther movie helped kick off a whole period of severe racial and societal turmoil."

I don't understand, I've never seen this kind of people anywhere

[Spadexxione]

snip
[/quote

But that representationosn't positive at all, the guy in your example would be right

[Shaddy]

I just copied the title from the website that I found. I was surprised when I saw it on Facebook.

Although I don't mind changing the title of the thread.

OH no I'm not accusing you of anything, you're good. I am speaking solely on the cadence of the article title.

Also, Kunzait's right and yuji's wrong, and Matt Bors is a genuinely good political cartoonist. Those are hard to come by. I certainly don't measure up even with my wicked MS paint skills.

[Spadexxione]

Alkiser you seem to be quoting posts and I'm not sure if you're trying to respond to them or not, but there's nothing showing up on your posts.

So long as that's true though, listen to me;

The bottom line is this: Roshi's creepy groping shit is fucking nasty and does not need to be in the show. It's not only not funny, it casts sexual assault as at-best the harmless actions of a guy who just doesn't know better. That is not a thing that should be in a show for impressionable kids (or most people, to be honest), and sadly, it's all-over popular anime and manga (and plenty of stuff outside that, but let's keep our scope where it is).

When you have stuff like advisors to the Japanese prime minister saying they should have the right to molest women on public transport, it should be pretty clear that the media portrayal of sexual harassment and assault cannot be so cavalier as for your children's TV cartoon to depict an old man groping young women as just a funny joke that happens sometimes.

Now, is it maybe a bit excessive to pull the entire show until you've gone over the thing? Sure. But complaining about Roshi is entirely justified, and getting sweaty about "political correctness" and "cancel culture" over some women being justifiably upset about the glorified portrayal of a borderline rapist is something only suited for indoctrinated neoreactionary fools or predators wanting to see their own behavior normalized.

There is really nothing about this shit from Roshi that we needed in the 80s and 90s, and there is even less reason to keep it around now. It bears no real influence on the plot, and the effort it would take on either Toei's or Toriyama's part to tone it down from "actively assaulting his female acquaintances on a regular basis" to just "is horny and gross" is extremely minimal. The guy gets off to exercise videos, he leaves porn magazines lying around, says racy things. You can build an old pervert out of that perfectly fine, and what would we lose? The worst excuses for fanservice in the universe? Yeah, I'm not going to treat that as some big loss. It's not even a real win for the "cancel culture". Not molesting people should be the default, Dragon Ball isn't gonna suddenly be some feminist masterpiece now.

My point is "What if kids start copying Roshi? is a stupid argument" that's just a rehash of "GTA will make kids into murderers" I saw tons of mature shit as a kid and I never copied any of it. Any issues should be between the parents and the network. Some nonsense government bureau shouldn't be wasting tax money on complaining about cartoons.

Nobody's saying this, and it is incredibly disingenuous of you to suggest that anyone has said this. Everyone knows art does not directly create the behavior it depicts in the consumer. What it does do is reinforce preexisting biases and normalize the culture it depicts. A person is not likely to beat a hooker with a baseball bat no matter how much GTA they play. If they hear about it, though, if they maybe even see it, they will react differently depending on how the culture they've consumed has taught them to perceive such acts. And if their treatment of that situation is "eh that's just a thing that happens", that can be incredibly damaging if they're placed in a position of power. Don't believe me? Look at how any cop treats a domestic abuse situation. Hell, look up how many cops are self-admitted domestic abusers. That didn't come from nowhere. It probably didn't come from GTA either, but the media those guys consumed throughout their lives absolutely played a part in how their mindset developed.

Nothing "needs to be in the show" but roshi acting like a pervert is funny so it is there, it is never portrayed as right and he doesn't even do that much. You know how cops handle domestic abuse? They follow the laws. And the duluth model says that even if a man is abused(and half of domestic abuse roughly is towards men) he gets arrested first and the woman gets to stay at home .People who abuse other people don't think that what they do is right because of "media" and if they do they would be shitty people regardless because as much as media can show abuse, it's still up to your parents and environment in real life to shape your morals.Don't you think that cops that are abusers are so because of a million other reasons in their personal life? If there really was kids media that justified sexual abuse or domestic violence the parents would boycott it in an heartbeat. Maybe if crimes are a thing that happens you don't need media to reinforce the attitude of : "eh these things happen" because it's the only reasonable stance you can have hat doesn't restrict the freedom of creators. Even if you had a different attitude you couldn't change what people do because it is already not socially accepted being a criminal, what are you going to do? Make it less accepted? The only way to stop it would be mind control. Most people are nice and would protect women against a molester even if they watched Dragon Ball and many shows like it because the things we watch influence us in the way we want them to, we decide what we like or not and what is right or not and even when I was a kid I knew not to take seriously Roshi's gags and I like them. Does that mean that I would be comfortable with sexual harassment in real ife? Absolutely not. What I mean is shitty people will do their thing regardless of what we say and show them because they just want to. Not to mention that in our society women can accuse any guy they want of rape or sexual harassment and ruin their life without any proof like what happened with Vic Mignogna or Johnny Depp. Amber litterally made half of his finger fall off and hit him and he was still considered the abuser by most of the fans despite all the proof and mber admitting to hitting him

[VegettoEX]

Not to mention that in our society women can accuse any guy they want of rape or sexual harassment and ruin their life without any proof like what happened with Vic Mignogna

We like to give people the benefit of the doubt. You seem to want to do the same. You just said you genuinely believe people are good.

What you just posted is false. It's just not true. We know it's not true. You've been duped. I'm really sorry, but you've been lied to and heavily misled. Sorry to apparently have to be the first to let you know, but them's the breaks.

Again, we're under no obligation to listen to or put up with demonstrably false information.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Nothing "needs to be in the show" but roshi acting like a pervert is funny so it is there, it is never portrayed as right and he doesn't even do that much.

Nor portrayed as bad/condemned either and by extension it's saying (intentionally or not) that said pervert behaviours are ok.

[JulieYBM]

ADHD post formating time!

1. I vote for more Kunzait posts.

2. Why yes, we women-loving-women are here to replace cishet men. Also, yes, I'm clearly being facetious.

3. I got out of the Mic Vignogna discussions for my own mental health and with my lousy health can't remember if there was a master post about all of his bullshit. Anyone have a link?

4. I forgot what I was going to post.

5. Oh, I remember. Roushi shit is bad and inappropriate for kids and clearly show that the people making the series don't always have basic fucking common sense about how to portray us and our concerns in media.

[MasenkoHA]

Nothing "needs to be in the show" but roshi acting like a pervert is funny so it is there, it is never portrayed as right and he doesn't even do that much.

The problem isn’t that it’s portrayed as right or wrong the problem is that it’s portrayed as no big deal. And in a country that has a problem with sexual harassment in public transit? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljaze ... s-a-victim

Yeah that’s not it.

You know how cops handle domestic abuse? They follow the laws. And the duluth model says that even if a man is abused(and half of domestic abuse roughly is towards men) he gets arrested first and the woman gets to stay at home

Did you know Google is free?

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/r ... dants-trea

Not to mention that in our society women can accuse any guy they want of rape or sexual harassment and ruin their life without any proof like what happened with Vic Mignogna

Do you know what testimonial evidence is? This isn’t just one woman saying Mignogna was inappropriate with her. This was MULTIPLE women saying this. But his stans have convinced themselves all these women who don’t know each other all conspired to get this Z-list celebrity because reasons I guess? This wasn’t even news when it broke out. I don’t even follow the goings on of anime dub voice actors and I was aware of Mignogna’s rep as a creep towards women. It was a pretty open secret.

or Johnny Depp. Amber litterally made half of his finger fall off and hit him and he was still considered the abuser by most of the fans despite all the proof and mber admitting to hitting him

And after Heard was revealed as the main perpetrator most people sided with Johnny. Even before that most were on Depp’s side.

[Kunzait_83]

I've noticed this trend where you completely misinterpret someone's point and then go on a self-aggrandizing and pompous tirade for half a page while making snarky "if the shoe fits" type of insults along the way.

Then if that's the case, that's 100% on me for being an idiot myself.

It would indeed be " ignorant, cringeworthy, and hopelessly uninformed" to claim that some gamers getting mad in their basements over Anita Sarkeesian directly lead to 2016 but that's not exactly what I said, is it?

It was the honest impression I got from the post I read. Since I misread what you were saying, that's totally my fault.

I said that the aggressive push for positive media representation in the late 00s and early 10s in traditionally male-centered hobbies without first addressing through a revamp of the school system the underlying biases that cause a) artists to represent minorities badly, and b) consumers to accept it as "normal," contributed to feelings of alienation and fear of inadequacy and replacement in a young, white male audience that inevitably led them down the alt-right pipeline. To deny this is to deny a lot of alt-righters account of how they even got recruited: watching "cringe SJW compilations" on Youtube leads directly into race realism and other nonsense.

Now THIS is a WAY more interesting and worthwhile conversation. While I certainly agree that issues surrounding schools and education are a crucial factor, I don't think that they constitute the lone or central one. Even if you were to overhaul schools and education, there are still a dizzying amount of other necessary reforms that directly impact people's personal lives and societal perspectives well outside of and beyond school.

Case in point, a big one being racial and gender isolation: so many alt-right guys have been lacking for much of their lives in a great deal of meaningful relationships and real world connections with... well, in a lot of cases with almost ANYONE, but in particular for purposes of this topic, with people of color, women, or queer people.

You said it yourself: they aren't identifying with or empathizing with characters largely on the basis of race/gender. Its a LOT harder to have that particular disconnect when you personally know and are close to some amount of actual minorities in your own personal, day to day life. If a hypothetical alt-right white guy sees a black woman in a lead role in his favorite cartoon, he isn't going to see her NEARLY as alien of a figure if he's close friends with at least one or more black women in his own life.

Education and schooling is indeed a tremendous factor (I listed it for a reason myself) but lets not pretend also that a LOT of this also doesn't come back to social isolation. Not just on the basis of race and gender, but also just IN GENERAL because a whole lot of these people are socially isolated and withdrawn from humanity at large (up to, including, and beyond just minorities), and are basically being left to rot alone in their rooms all day with nothing but these stupid movies, cartoons, video games, and the internet to keep them company day to day. School is certainly a important factor in knocking away that whole paradigm, but its far from the be-all, end-all just by itself.

But yes, generally speaking I still definitely agree that school is still a key, critical factor within that broader list of items that need to be addressed.

Where does that alienation come from is a different question entirely,

The thing is though, in my view its THE core of the whole issue: a mentally and emotionally healthy person with a healthy and diverse set of human relationships doesn't even come within a zillion miles of making the kind of idiotic jumps that so many of these people are making constantly.

While I'm certainly beyond glad that your overall appraisal of the situation is vastly better informed and thoughtful than I was under the impression it was, even in understanding where you're coming from better the crux of where we disagree is that I think that FAR more of the onus and focus should be set upon addressing the actual source of the alienation rather than something that is simply emblematic of it. White guys violently overreacting to a bunch of movies and cartoons suddenly remembering that women and black people also exist in the world and might be worth writing more stories about isn't the source of the problem: its a symptom of a MUCH deeper and more crucial issue.

And while there's definitely short-term value in addressing those symptoms, I don't think that they warrant nearly the same level of attention in the grander scheme than does the underlying source of the issue: that these guys are mostly left lost adrift with miserable home lives, near-total social isolation, minimal economic prospects (in some cases) and, to your point, crappy education and lack of basic historical awareness.

and you're entirely correct in your assessment (which, although correct, was completely unnecessary as I am probably farther left than you are despite your probable assumption that you're arguing against a right-winger, so I know this already and would make far more scathing criticisms about capitalism, industrialism and American democracy).

I didn't assume I was arguing against a right-winger: I had no idea whatsoever what your political leanings (if any) were. The (incorrect) impression that I got was of someone who was just generally politically ignorant, not in any specific left or right direction. Obviously this was not the case, and I'm very happy to see that.

As to the other point there: I have zero interest whatsoever in a "who's Lefter than thou" dick measuring contest. Suffice to say that I certainly have more than my own fair share of far more vitriolic critiques about capitalism and the U.S. political process than I've noted here: but that's only because I'm trying to stay focused on this one track here. Don't mistake my lack of explicitly noting something with my actual position (for or against) on it.

But I didn't argue that a left-leaning 16-year old is getting radicalized by Ghostbusters 2016, only that the constant string of hamfisted attempts at pushing positive media representation will inevitably help bolster the alt-right if they're not handled with care.

Maybe I'm wrong, but at this point I think its FAR more worthwhile to try and just sweep the stupid fucking cartoons and video games aside entirely (since end of the day, they hardly matter NEARLY as much) and just directly address the actual nuts and bolts of what's actually impacting these people's lives.

Cause let's face it: whether they're conscious of it or not (and many of them are not), these stupid cartoon and video game "woke retools" are just paper-thin stand-ins for the things that are ACTUALLY eating away at them inside. I think its far more practical and beneficial to just go for the core of the matter directly instead of getting bogged down in arguing the minutia of the racial and gender politics latest Star Wars cartoon or whatnot.

And all of this completely ignores the rampant idiocy where a lot of these guys treat the presence of "woke politics" in properties that have ALWAYS had them already since decades and decades ago (X-Men, Star Trek, Metal Gear, The Matrix, Captain fucking America, hell even the new Candyman reboot of all things is getting this charge), and these folks are only JUST NOW suddenly noticing it.

That's in NO way something that can be laid at the feet of "young Leftists awkwardly shoe-horning in politics into media": this is 1000% a complete and abject failure of even the most BASIC kind of "A leads to B leads to C" critical thinking on the part of reactionaries (regarding media that they themselves claim to have loved and been obsessed with for years), full-stop.

And of course that's also setting aside the whole fundamental point that "politics" in these convos is so often used as a stand-in for "x or y minority existing". Again, a failure to realize that you're being duped into interpreting "white guy" as "normal" and "any other group at all" as "political" to its very nature is 1000% a failure of basic thinking skills, which is something that is once again ENTIRELY set apart from however clumsily or deftly some young would-be progressive writer or artist handles minority main characters in a given work.

Its one thing when a show or movie or game might try to be cumbersomely or awkwardly inclusive in a way that's completely tone-deaf: but time and time again, a lot of reactionaries are having this same exact absurd, histrionic over-reaction towards even works where the "political" content is handled as expertly, deftly, and artfully as possible. To the point where they're now primed to just get angry literally at anything that reminds them that black people and queer people even exist at all.

Not being able to just baseline self-correct, self-introspect, and recognize "Wait a second... am I basically now just saying that ONLY white guys should EVER get ANY focus in ANYTHING ever made? Would I have felt this way just a year or two ago? What exactly am I turning into here?" is a total failure of just having a functioning fucking brain that can think beyond ten seconds in front of your face. That we're seeing such a LARGE mass of people (grown-ass men) fail at even THIS incredibly cursory, 3rd grade level critical thinking... this is why I bring the focus around back to the core crux of the problems rather than getting hung up on the stupid cartoons.

If your life is going well enough and all your ores are in the water to begin with, then you're not going to put SO much of your emotional investment and project so much of your personal identity onto a bunch of fucking children's cartoons in the first fucking place anyway.

That we're looking at a whole generation of young people whose lives are SUCH a colossal trainwreck that they're willing to let things like My Little Pony and Captain Marvel and Ghostbusters and whatnot be the conduit that allows the most laughably obvious conmen and scumbags on the planet (the kinds of people whom most of us would be laughing off the screen as "too over the top, too cliche, and too on the nose" if they were characters in a movie just a decade ago) to talk them into becoming literal fucking Neo Nazis is as clear an indication as any I can conceivably fathom that we are SO far beyond the point where anyone can reasonably say "If only these silly SJW writers handled Ray in The Force Awakens better." as even the most threadbare fractional point of blame for where everything broke down.

What I'm saying is, this problem goes WAY beyond and past the examples where "wokeness" is handled poorly and hamfistedly in a given work of fiction: this is a MASS society-wide failure of basic-most cognitive abilities, incredibly short-term historical memory, and a MASSIVE warping of basic-most reality via internet rabbit holes.

Thinking that "no, crappy writers and artists who don't know how to handle this stuff more carefully" deserve anything more than .001% of the blame is, I'm sorry, fucking certifiably insane and irrational.

Let me illustrate my point: a young white man in his teenage years sees his favorite show gets rebooted with a diverse cast, his first thought process is "Oh? That's odd but I guess it's cool." Next week, he sees another favorite show of his recast the main character as PoC he thinks "Again? Well, if it's for diversity then that should be fine." After a month, his favorite videogame gets a sequel where the old young male protagonist he could relate to is replaced by a lesbian woman, now he starts to think "Why is this happening?" and he goes to Youtube to see if anyone has the answer. He finds videos of other people complaining about the same thing, either people in earnest questioning these dumb decisions, and bad faith actors trying to radicalize people by pointing to the fact that companies are trying to make money, that they don't care about the average consumer and that the people "in charge" want to "replace" them. Suddenly he thinks, "yeah maybe he's right, I can't relate to any piece of media coming out anymore, they must want me gone." Now even his favorite hobbies are reminding him of his inadequacies and insecurities and he understandably lashes out.

This is a completely separate problem that you're pointing out here from just how media itself actually handles these characters and stories. What you're illustrating is an interpersonal failure of the people in the real world (online or otherwise) that they're coming into contact with outside of the realm of fiction. Fellow fans, online friends, casual acquaintances, maybe even family members, etc.

I actually believe it or not, largely AGREE with you on most (if not all) of that. But the onus for that breakdown in basic communication, empathy, and education isn't really so much on the heads of writers and artists of some blockbuster summer films and children's cartoon shows: that onus is on the mass breakdown and failure of institutions ranging from education (again, to your earlier point) and even just people's own fucking friend, family, and peer groups (or in many cases, the total lack thereof).

Ben 10, Star Wars, Harry Potter, and the MCU should NOT be our last line of defense against keeping the average Joe from being easily brainwashed into a violent, ultra-racist reactionary. That these (inherently dumb, silly) children's properties ARE being largely viewed that way is as clear a sign as any of a severely unhealthy society that is in abject failure and decline.

By the way, your analogy is flawed. There's a clear and marked difference between a general and universal "everyone get along together" saccharine message in media and a clear and deliberate attempt at appealing to current political trends and preoccupations by diversifying the cast or including explicitly leftist themes and messaging. One doesn't upset anyone and is a universal lesson in schools, churches and at home, the other is a deliberate attempt at upsetting the status quo, which, regardless of validity, will naturally raise some eyebrows and cause confusion and anger.

You're misunderstanding, at least a significant part of, my comparison: even setting aside general, universal "can't we all just get along?" messaging, there were a LOT of children's TV shows, Public Service Announcements, and Afterschool Specials throughout the 1970s, 80s, and 90s that delved into a TON of highly political and specific waters.

Racism, sexism, drugs, broken homes, domestic abuse: tons of these specific issues were directly tackled (if in incredibly corny, dumb, simplistic, and ham-handed ways: much like many of the very same crappy movies and shows we're addressing right now in this thread, almost like this "woke" stuff is mostly just the same exact stupid-ass kids' shit as before and people are allowing themselves to get worked up into a homicidal lather over absolutely nothing whatsoever ) across a ton of awkwardly shoe-horned-in PSA's inserted directly into children's shows and entertainment: including beloved properties that folks in this very forum grew up obsessed with.

For someone to act like they've NEVER seen racism acknowledged in mass kids' media is to basically wipe their own memory of the very media they consumed and claim to be fixated on. Again, let me note for the record how many people are still right now acting absolutely shocked and gobsmacked at the "woke politics" that were "just now recently inserted" into almost literally any given Marvel property (which have always, ALWAYS had "woke" political subtext from largely day one).

Now, if you at any point during this last paragraphs thought I was giving credence to the alt-right then that's on you for not trying to argue in good faith and being blinded in your attempts to dunk on someone for internet clout.

This leaves me confused more than anything else.

One simple question: internet clout from who exactly? Who the fuck do you think it is exactly that I'm trying to "impress" here, on a fucking Dragon Ball fan forum in 2021 as a grown-ass man in his mid/late-ish 30s? What kind of "clout" would that get me that makes it worth my time and energy to post a longform response in THIS niche-ass place exactly? From who and to what end?

I don't even know how to respond to this: save to say I don't now, nor have I ever posted on here for "clout". I don't even have an active social media presence of almost any kind really. My online footprint, outside of this one forum, is as minimal (certainly not non-existent, but definitely minimal) as anyone you'll likely find my age who doesn't live out in the middle of complete nowhere.

I'm left at a total loss as to what you think my actual intent here is. You say I'm arguing in bad faith, but to what possible motive or agenda you think I have is completely mystifying to me.

The actual answer as to my motives in this particular thread is the most obvious and direct one: I simply misunderstood the framing from which you were initially approaching the topic from. That's 100% my own fault, and I sincerely apologize for that on my end. Anything else you think that I'm doing here beyond that I can guarantee is entirely your imagination.

I am merely illustrating how this push for representation in new media (both corporate reboots to appeal to a new demographic and earnest attempts by minorities to see themselves represented in their art) can spark someone's journey to radicalization. It doesn't start by watching TheQuartering on Youtube, they go to those channels because they consume the media first. It doesn't matter if they're right or wrong, or if this move to right-leaning positions has its origin in more complex, deep-rooted issues,

And this bolded part right here is where I HARD disagree with you. For all the reasons I stated earlier.

Any sane, reasonably normal, moderately educated person with an even vaguely healthy social life just WOULDN'T be in a position to EVER have to make that kind of ridiculous and thoroughly demented leap. Because I'm sorry, making the jump (over however long and winding of an internet rabbit hole) from "a lot of my favorite cartoons seem to have more black and women characters in it lately" to "The Jews are secretly trying to get black people and Muslims to replace white people! We have to kill them all to save ourselves!" (or some relatively "lighter and softer" version or variation of that basic conclusion, which spoiler alert, is ultimately the endpoint that this ENTIRE path always, ALWAYS ultimately leads everyone towards) is 1000%, matter-of-fact, inarguably deranged. Psychopathic. Fucking lunatic, straight-jacket and padded walls shit.

And yet obviously this is more or less the path that a horrifyingly large number of young people have been lead down over the course of the last 7 or 8 years or so (roughly). This is directly indicative of a society that is in STEEP and red alert-levels of decline and near full scale collapse: some "woke" progressives who just happen to be crappy-ass writers of fiction are about the ABSOLUTE least of our fucking problems nor are they in any which way worthy of anything more than the thinnest possible fucking sliver of the overall blame (if that even).

this is what the left doesn't get, because to those people being converted, they see their problem as obvious and immediate and nobody is trying to educate them on the contrary. Very few people are saying "listen, young white men have had positive representation for ages and if you feel the effects of no representation because a few of your favorite franchises are taking a different turn, then you could understand why positive representation for minorities who have historically had none is necessary right now. Rest assured nobody is trying to replace you, there is still plenty of media with male leads you can relate to."

Again: you're making the conflation between what some "woke" writers are putting on the screen/on the page and the actual real life interpersonal interactions that these young reactionaries are having outside of the actual media itself. These are two ENTIRELY separate and distinct problems: and the latter (real life interpersonal interactions) are of VASTLY greater importance than the former (what some cartoons, movies, and video games are showing and moreover, how they're showing it).

Its also totally silly to equate movie, TV, and video game writers with "the Left" in the broader culture at large. For starters it ignores the obvious class divide at play: most people in the entertainment industry often skew fairly rich, or at least fairly well off. Certainly much more so than the average rando. This plays into their own political views plenty, as a great many liberal people in positions of economic comfort and privilege tend to skew overwhelmingly more centrist than left. Being left solely in one's social views isn't in any way the same thing as being "left" more broadly politically, and there is a STEEP dividing line between being a liberal centrist and being genuinely left.

But more to the point: I don't know who exactly this monolithic "the left" that you're talking about here actually are supposed to be. Are we talking Liberal Hollywood? They certainly make up the vast bulk of the voices behind most of the mainstream entertainment that most reactionaries fixate their attention on: but I would hardly call many of them "left" in any meaningful sense beyond "be nice to brown and queer people". Some are genuinely left for sure, but they're hardly the norm in the wider entertainment industry.

If anything, centrist liberals - due to the cognitive dissonance that is required to keep totally conflicting and contradicting thoughts like "left socially, conservative economically" coexisting inside their brains (despite the latter directly and negatively impacting the former very significantly), they're hardly the most politically coherent people you'll talk to. So if you're banking on those people as your exemplar standard of "the left" as it is defined in today's broader landscape, then its no wonder they're doing an insufficient, shitty job at winning reactionaries over: they can barely make their political views make any kind of sense to themselves, much less to anyone else.

If you're talking about average randos out in fandom on the internet though: then A) that's a MUCH messier and more complex terrain to appraise and judge and B) they in NO WAY hold any kind of power (other than through their collective wallets obviously) over how specific pieces of media handle their content.

But to keep that part of it short and simple: yeah, among average, ordinary people? Shit's been a clusterfuck of a trainwreck in terms of sensible, rational, and empathetic discourse that might've talked a lot of folks down from the ledge. Some folks have been better at it than others, but sure, plenty have been utter disasters at it.

Regardless though, I certainly wouldn't put ALL of the blame on randos out in the world. Some of it certainly, perhaps even a reasonably decent chunk of it in some areas: but far from all or the majority of it. The real bulk of the onus for the failure and collapse in society ultimately lies upward: not across, and certainly not downward.

Instead, the prominent, general attitude among young leftists is to say "yeah, fuck men and fuck white people, it's our time, diversity is our strength, white people bad, men bad, buzzwords buzzwords buzzwords."

Ok, NOW you have to just be fucking with me, right? "Fuck men and fuck white people"? You seriously can point to ANYONE - outside of the most unhinged corners of Tumblr and Twitter, or a posh college campus, or a right wing strawman - out in the real world that talks ANYTHING like this? I spent the better part of the past several years traveling up and down various parts of the country as part of my job, I've been a part of tons of activist political groups and organizations with people from all different walks of life, and I keep my ear pretty reasonably close to the ground when it comes to internet discourse.

The people that exist out in the world who are explicitly saying "white men are inherently bad" are EXCEEDINGLY fucking minimal. I'm saying this as a fucking white guy myself, so you'd imagine I might somewhat take notice if someone within my earshot said "white men are THE main problem with everything ever".

That message is certainly what a large chunk of reactionaries are HEARING and its also what a lot of them WANT to hear: but with noteworthy exceptions, it ISN'T what's largely being said by most normal people out in the real world. Certainly not within anything close to the mainstream (which is, in a great many areas, still as white male run and dominant as ever).

To the extent that such people (left people who legit hate all white men) are a thing, you have to go REALLY deep into college campus activist circles (where most of those people eventually grow out of that shit) or into the deepest underbelly of Tumblr, Facebook, and Twitter (the latter two also giving you more than plenty of other hateful views against a litany of other groups, not just white men).

This is a totally false equivalence and unjustified "both side-ism" that's DEFINITELY rooted in more right leaning circles.

I'm all for dunking on clueless, out of touch liberals as much as the next person, but this "SJWs hate white men" crap is 1000% dogshit that's largely spewed from reactionaries who either actively WANT for there to be a direct equivalent on the other side to help further justify their own aggrievement, or who just can't be bothered to look up and read from actual history themselves and see what exactly it is that minorities are ACTUALLY upset about and what it is they actually want done (hint: it isn't for all white men to be killed or replaced - again, as a white guy I wouldn't exactly be on board with that project if that were it).

Combine that with the general gatekeeping and purity testing of the left and contrast it with the designed inclusivity and welcoming nature of the alt-right and there's no question why uneducated young men who see their favorite characters whom they related to being replaced by what they see as alien are flocking to the alt-right.

The first part regarding gatekeeping on the left I'll definitely agree with you on fullstop as being a legit issue. Purity testing, it entirely depends on what you mean by that (that's often used as coded language for other things in certain political circles), but in some contexts, yes that gets filed in with the gatekeeping issue. As far as "inclusivity" on the alt-right... I presume you mean "inclusivity" so long as you're a cis, hetero white guy, right? Cause otherwise that point doesn't make much sense.

Broadly speaking though, yes I'll agree that there's a pretty serious gatekeeping issue in a lot of left corners, without question.

The unwillingness of the left not only to empathize but merely to understand the grievances of the other side is why ultimately the modern left is a fucking joke, too busy sniffing their own farts to enact any change.

I understand the grievances of "the other side" perfectly fine: the problem is that their grievances are at best completely and wildly misdirected (i.e. blame minorities and cartoons for your problems instead of the obvious lack of money, social skills, and material, foundational help that common fucking sense and 5 seconds worth of thought and self-examination would tell you is clearly the real root of your troubles), and at worst entirely a figment of their ridiculous imagination (i.e. "I'm not allowed to be a straight white guy anymore! Everyone hates ME specifically for not being queer or dark skinned or for having a penis!").

The former I have all the empathy in the world for: the latter, I'm sorry, but I simply do not. Forgive me for not being able to work up sympathy for a certain swath of the populace who's biggest worry in the world currently - during a time of mass death, suffering, poverty, and racially/sexually-motivated violence - are what Marvel movies are up to (in and of themselves, and not as a distraction or diversion from other, real and serious pain in their lives the way it is for some) or that some girl they have a crush on doesn't want to fuck them or whatnot.

Earlier I made the distinction between the portion of the far right reactionaries who get drawn in out of desperation from their incredibly shitty situation in life versus the ones who live in extreme spoiled-ass comfort and privilege and come into it out of pure myopically sheltered selfishness.

The former of that divide genuinely need to be won over with compassion, empathy, and understanding. The latter though? Fuck. Them. There isn't anything there in those people to "reach out" to. That side of the group deserve nothing but absolute scorn and derision, universally from EVERYONE and need to simply be politically defeated and marginalized out of the way before they can do anymore damage to the rest of us. Smallest fucking violin in the world for those "Affluenza" scumbags.

White grievance is a mixture of the real and the petty, the small and the severe, the genuinely tangible and the totally imaginary. What's real is often used to misdirect and mislead the more desperate and less educated among them into horrible ends that are both horrifically damaging to minorities (and to themselves frankly) as well as being COMPLETELY far afield of what's ACTUALLY going wrong in their lives. And what's imagined and is not real is... I'm sorry, just sheer fucking deranged nonsense. There just ISN'T any other way to say it.

And when the needs of both the more impoverished whites and the needs of most minorities are SO vastly desperate and life or death serious, there just isn't a whole lot of time and space to waste on indulging and humoring complete bullshit nonsense like "Do people hate me because I'm white?" (no, they hate you because you're just a fucking asshole: there, I solved the mystery) while there are currently scores of people getting beaten and attacked in the streets for NOT being white.

There's a huge, vast difference between showing empathy and compassion and just plain coddling someone. People with legit, serious problems - regardless of race or gender or whatnot - absolutely deserve every ounce of love and understanding. Humoring and entertaining relatively comfortable people who are trying to directly equate their own naval-gazing ennui and mild discomfort with seeing real suffering around them with the plight of people who's very lives and existence are in direct jeopardy however... that's just textbook fucking coddling. I thought the right wing were militantly against that kind of snowflake shit? Oh, only when it applies to others, but not them? Got it. I see how that works now.

I'm sorry, but beyond a certain threshold, there just ISN'T a fucking equivalence between "I'm being made to feel mildly uncomfortable with myself" and "if I don't achieve this political goal, then the lives of myself and anyone who looks like me are in direct danger under threat of physical violence". Trying so desperately hard to find an equivalence between those blatantly and demonstrably unequal circumstances is the kind of self-inflicted psychopathy that's at the heart of what's helping to drive so many white guys into completely unhinged reactionary hysterics, and basically making complete and absolute fucking jackasses of themselves while the rest of the world around them is (both metaphorically and quite literally) burning to the ground.

The nub of so much of white reactionary thought simply boils down to trying DESPERATELY - to the point of lunatic insane irrationality - to seek equivalent aggrievement and victimhood with the most vulnerable and victimized people in society: on some level, it is a form of complete narcissism and needing to be at the epicenter of the societal narrative (maybe in part because we've conditioned so many white guys to see themselves that way and internalize that view via all the constant nonstop catering to them in media: just a thought) no matter what and no matter how unquestioningly, unbelievably worse off the other group has it than you do. Its rooted in the chronic inability for a certain segment of white male society to come to grips with and accept the simple fact that its not just fucking about you.

As a lifelong Leftist, I generally DON'T believe in hierarchical thinking for the most part... with one sole notable exception. And that's the hierarchy of need. Hell, its right there in the socialist motto: "To each according to their need..." etc. If there's only one hospital bed left and its down to a gunshot victim or a guy who broke his hand: the gunshot victim gets the bed. Its as simple as that.

And while there's certainly a good deal of universal overlap between the very worst of white male issues and those of minorities (largely stemming from economic issues: this is why class maters and why class is ALSO just as important as race - it isn't either/or, its BOTH simultaneously and in tandem), at the end of the day, the more specific, granular, and nuanced into the issues you get, the more that most cis hetero white men are simply going to ultimately take a backseat to most minorities on the hierarchy of need. Time and time and time and time again. That's the nature and logical end result of having been a "privileged" group of people in society for so long.

For every white male problem, most minority groups have not only the same problem BUT ALSO all this OTHER horrific shit tacked onto it (by sheer virtue of their being a minority and all the historical baggage and inertia that that entails: this is why knowing and understanding basic history matters folks) that often makes it quadrupled more extreme and fucked up than it is for a lot of white guys. And obviously this is all when taken in aggregate as a broader, collective whole: obviously individual exceptions throughout will of course be readily and easily findable and noticeable. But those in no way invalidate, disprove, or lessen the blunt, fundamental reality of the much broader whole.

Some white grievances are genuinely serious (isolation, poverty, lack of access to basic social safety nets, etc), and those should 1000% be taken with utmost seriousness: others however - like what their favorite cartoons are currently up to or whether or not they're popular getting dates - absolutely PALE in comparison to the incredibly serious, life-and-death needs of vulnerable minorities.

And a fundamental part of growing up (that has clearly been lost on a lot of these folks) is learning when to recognize when someone else's needs are vastly more urgent and important than your own and being adult enough to set your own bullshit aside for them to get the help that they clearly need way more than you do. At a certain point, you have to knuckle down and make the choice between being a selfish, self-centered prick, or a considerate, decent human being who values the lives of others at the very least as much as you do your own.

For some reason, this seems to be an INSANELY bitter pill that a large swath of white male society seem more content with (literally and without hyperbole or exaggeration) driving themselves absolutely fucking MENTAL (to the point of throwing in with, I'll never stop being gobsmacked about this, literal fucking Nazis) than just accepting as an obvious, and fundamentally basic fact of life. Some people's needs are way more important and urgent than your own: its not all just about you. Other people live here too, and their safety and wellbeing matters just as much as yours does.

Even with all the other bullshit present, this shouldn't be THAT difficult of a kindergarten-level concept for so many people to grasp.

[JulieYBM]

Fun fact: the real world is both awful and good because five minutes after some dipshit transphobe comes through your line you'll get a 12 year old trans girl, her trans girlfriend and her supportive mom coming through your line and losing their shit at the existence of a real-life trans woman working a job and suddenly your waters have been cropped and you forget how badly you want to die for a solid hour.

I forget what the point of this post was but I hope your watered has been crops.

[Polyphase Avatron]

1. I vote for more Kunzait posts.

I don't. There's not enough time in the day to read them all.

[Kunzait_83]

1. I vote for more Kunzait posts.

I don't. There's not enough time in the day to read them all.

You're under no obligation to read them all.

[WittyUsername]

I realize this is an incredibly minor part of the conversation, but when people talk about “centrist liberals,” what exactly are they referring to?

[Koitsukai]

The Roshi gags being funny isn't even an excuse, funny to who? to you? to me? to the author? is more offensive than it is funny.
I'm all for having freedom with your art and the first one to applaud a good joke or occurrence even if it's at my own expense, but this ain't it, these jokes are basically a dude grabbing tits that want nothing to do with him, there's no creative process behind them, no social critique, or even an underlying joke, it's less than a fart joke which at least have the sonority and unexpectedness going on for them.

Another problem is he gets only called out on it or gets hit by the victims, never by his peers or non-victims watching the scene develop. If Goku would say hey, stop that, ojiisan, it's wrong, that would be a clear message for the viewer on where the show, and its beloved star, stand on that matter while keeping the "joke" if you like it so much. But the message ends up being more like "girls, nobody is helping you, nobody takes this matter seriously, not even your closest friends, so fend for yourselves".

[JulieYBM]

Apologies for my loopiness for the last day

I realize this is an incredibly minor part of the conversation, but when people talk about “centrist liberals,” what exactly are they referring to?

Abigail from Philosophy Tube did a nice video series on the subject of liberalism: https://youtu.be/VlLgvSduugI

Basically, it's just conservatism with extra steps, if we look at the ultimately outcome of the philosophy

I'd wash that pre-transition stuff by watching one of her latest videos, just to get a better taste of the quality of her work.

[Yuji]

@Kunzait

Since I'd have to take a massive break from writing my dissertation to address your response in full, I'll just address the crux of the argument. You seem to be under the impression that I'm not advocating for addressing the systemic, deep-rooted issues that cause young men to become alienated in the first place, but that's not it. Obviously, that's important and should be addressed. My point is that while that is being done politically, socially we have to be understanding of the grievances of those who are seeing their status quo challenged in the media they consume, and we have to be aware of how their minds are susceptible to propaganda because of this. Obviously by the time someone starts going to /pol/ regularly and buying Nazi flags to hang on their dorm room, they're pretty far gone (though I'd argue that a chance for rehabilitation is still possible), but targeting and educating the people who are still center, center-left or center-right who don't quite understand this "woke SJW ideology" is important, because like it or not people do base their identities around media, especially children's media as nostalgia is a very powerful force. It's fine to say "oh but that's stupid, we need to address systemic issues, who cares if some nerds get angry over some cartoons" but while those systemic issues are being addressed for posterity, the alt-right recruits more and more victims in the here and now by appealing to their impotent rage. We can't shut our eyes and let that happen, sometimes acknowledging that "wokeness" or whatever becomes a bit too heavy-handed and cringeworthy can do wonders to, if not stop, then at least halt someone's descent into the pipeline.

It's obviously a multi-faceted issue I don't even pretend to have the full answer to, but I'm also guessing we agree on about 95% of the points being made here. Apologies for the clout chasing comment, that was my impression from the hostile attitude to what I think was your first interaction with me.

[Polyphase Avatron]

1. I vote for more Kunzait posts.

I don't. There's not enough time in the day to read them all.

You're under no obligation to read them all.

Blame my OCD, man. I read every single post in the Vic Mignogna thread.