Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

Spoiler:

[Yuji]

How would you rank the following fighters based on latent potential exclusively?

Goku
Gohan
Vegeta
Piccolo
#17
#18
Broly
Freeza
Goku Black
Hit
Jiren
Kuririn
Tenshinhan
Roshi
Yamcha
Future Trunks
Present Trunks
Goten
Cabba
Caulifla
Kale
Cell
Uub
Buu

I'd probably organise them into tiers

S tier:
Freeza, Uub, Buu, Cell

A tier:
Broly, Gohan

B tier:
Goku Black, Hit, Kale, future Trunks, present Trunks, Goten

C tier:
Caulifla, #17, #18, Piccolo

D tier:
Cabba, Jiren (seems to have hit his limits)

E tier:
Goku, Vegeta

F tier:
Humans

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Gohan and Piccolo have generally been portrayed as equivalent to one another against Saonel and Pirina in their base forms.

Their Ultimate forms were also somewhat comparable in the SH movie.

Base Gohan also did about as well against Gamma 1 as base Piccolo (I love how I can actually use "base" Piccolo now) did against Gamma 2, maybe even better. Given how these guys at full power are comparable to Ultimate Gohan/Piccolo in power who are sitting at SSG/SSB in strength, it makes sense that Gamma 1 didn't give any special thought to base Gohan becoming a Super Saiyan.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I can't see Piccolo being just base level, not unless 18 and Ribrianne are below that level. Gamisaras overwhelmed 18 but Piccolo defeated him very easily.

Come to mention her, how strong is 18? Both relative to Goku and to old DBZ characters. Is she around Base Goku's level? Far below? Can she beat Boo in some form? She beats Ribrianne and that stone Trooper, both of whom gave Base Goku trouble. Or was Goku holding back?

How would you rank the following fighters based on latent potential exclusively?

Goku
Gohan
Vegeta
Piccolo
#17
#18
Broly
Freeza
Goku Black
Hit
Jiren
Kuririn
Tenshinhan
Roshi
Yamcha
Future Trunks
Present Trunks
Goten
Cabba
Caulifla
Kale
Cell
Uub
Buu

I'd probably organise them into tiers

S tier:
Freeza, Uub, Buu, Cell

A tier:
Broly, Gohan

B tier:
Goku Black, Hit, Kale, future Trunks, present Trunks, Goten

C tier:
Caulifla, #17, #18, Piccolo

D tier:
Cabba, Jiren (seems to have hit his limits)

E tier:
Goku, Vegeta

F tier:
Humans

1. Uub

The final boss of the series.

2. Broly

Reached SSJB and then GoD level in one fight.

3. Gohan

Reached SSJB level in 2 days and GoD level in one burst.

4. Buu

Mr Buu doesn't seem to have the same potential as Uub, otherwise Goku would've been thrilled about fighting them too. Still, he improves very quickly.

5. Kale

Should be the same as Broly, but couldn't grow as much. Maybe it's because she's still a teenager?

6. Freeza

Reached SSJB level in 4 months and then needed over 10 years to catch up to GoD level.

7. Goten/Trunks

Half Saiyans > Pure Saiyans. I used to think they're better than Gohan because they're stronger than he was at their age, but Gohan is clearly an anomaly. Future Trunks and Present Trunks are the same, although the environment they grew up in meant Kid Present Trunks > Kid Future Trunks.

8. 17/18

Even if 17 never does anything again, reaching SSJB level on his own is massive. 18 could've been as good if she tried, and I suspect her ToP power just before the tournament.

9. Caulifla

She improved crazy fast in the ToP and even unlocked SSJ2 way before Cabba.

10. Cabba

U6 Saiyans > U7 Saiyans.

11. Goku/Vegeta/Goku Black

Used to think Vegeta > Goku, but they're always the same nowadays. If we're going strictly by latent power, which is dictated by genetics, then Goku Black is no different. He'd stay ahead because of his godly soul, and Goku would stay ahead of Vegeta in DBZ because of his ingenuity.

12. Piccolo

13. He might have the greatest potential for a Namek, but he's no Saiyan.

13. Kuririn

Going with the official power levels, Kuririn was always closing in on Tenshinhan before finally surpassing him. I think this means Kuririn was more gifted.

14. Tenshinhan/Yamcha

Don't really see a difference between them.

15. Roshi

He's old. However strong he is now is the highest he'll ever be.

?. Jiren/Hit/Cell

Unknown. Hit is a thousand years old, and we don't know how strong Jiren is but his main suit is determination. Who knows how long they've been training, or who trained them.
With Cell, he might have the greatest potential around, or the mix of races might have diluted his potential.

[QuakingStar]

1. Gohan
In less than a day he was able to re-awaken his Boo Saga level of power
https://i.imgur.com/iIuJtPf.png

and then in less than 5 hours just from training with Piccolo he was able to reach Super Saiyan Blue levels of power.
https://i.imgur.com/AHWLwHL.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/tv8wOtW.jpg

While in the manga, he started the ToP at his Boo Saga level of power but in less than 48 minutes just from fighting SS Kefla he rose to Super Saiyan Blue levels of power.

In SH he hasn't been training anywhere near as hard yet his Ultimate power starts him at Super Saiyan Blue levels again and once he gets Beast he becomes the strongest non-GoD, non-Angel warrior in the Universe and zero-difs Cell Max who is Broly level.

2. Broly

Reached SSJB level in a few hours in base form in the manga then seemed to cap and needed to go SS to fight the two of them, but needed Wrath State to do reach Blue level in the movie and SS to fight the two of them together in the movie as well. His SS and SSFP forms are used to fight SS and SSB Gogeta in both iterations, whereas SSB Gogeta near effortlessly pounds him into the dirt in both.

3. Freeza

Reached SSJB level in 4 months but indeed needed 10 years to catch up to GoD level.

?. Jiren.
Did all his training himself. No time chamber, no senzu beans, no god ki, no dragon balls yet he was so damn strong. In the manga Whis says that his potential is immeasurable.

[SupremeKai25]

Seeing how Uub is only relevant because of Grand Supreme Kai (there is nothing else that is relevant about this farmer kid living in primitive hut), it is funny to place Uub at the top of the list and Goku Black near the bottom. Since Goku Black/Zamasu, as a Supreme Kai prodigy that was praised by even Angel Whis, would be reasonably comparable to Grand Supreme Kai (who is the only relevant source of Uub's power).

In terms of potential, Goku Black has one of the highest. In one year, he was able to grow accustomed to Goku's body and unleash its full power and even attain an incredible peak of power that Vegeta needed a whole year of training to reach (Vegeta might have "beaten" Black in their last fight, but he needed A WHOLE YEAR of intense training that literally broke the chamber, this hypes up Black more than Vegeta). On top of this, he is a Supreme Kai prodigy who was hand-picked for his fighting skills and genius; so, if Uub moves up thanks to Grand Supreme Kai, then Goku Black must also move up because he is obviously comparable to Grand Supreme Kai.

In the Toei Anime continuity, Goku Black's evolution reached a level of power that forced Gogeta Blue to go into the SSB Evolved form.

[Koitsukai]

Uub's potential has been discussed since he was introduced. That's actually all he has: potential. DBS seems to be going to town with this concept.

Gohan's potential is also his gimmick. He's never at his limit, there's always more room for growth and he'll catch up to anybody, no matter who.

Broly's potential is nuts, with no training and during his first bout ever he ended up being, mistakenly, compared to Beerus.

Freeza, shit, the guy in just 10 years might actually have become Beerus' rival. Who knows how far from his limit he is. I doubt that if he had trained when he was younger, he'd be already at his limit by the age of 15 or 20, considering his race has a long lifespan. He might have more room to grow.

Goku's potential is clearly below the previous people, and at the same time it's bigger. I guess due to being the MC, but he has surpassed all of them at one point, and probably will surpass them again.

I'd go with Broly because he is the pinnacle of saiyan biology(I think Gohan is close but not quite there); Freeza because he is like the Broly of his race, an even stronger race (a prodigy of a prodigal race); and Uub, because nobody ever started that strong. I'm assuming he is already Kid Buu level, but I might be wrong. In any case, he still has the capacity to power up Silver UI to its fullest... while being a fucking child. I'd say any of those three is the one with the highest potential.

And Goku, while apparently being always at his limit, he keeps on breaking those limits in every new arc. His potential is unknown, he'll get stronger as long as the story is on-going. I mean, who knew he'd end up being so much stronger than ToP UI? well, dumb question, yeah, all of us, because the story keeps on bringing stronger threats.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku Black’s potential is no different from Goku’s. They are the same body. What Goku Black has is the genius to know exactly how to draw out said power, but brains isn’t power.

Uub has the power of the strongest Kaioshin to have ever lived inside his body. That’s potential.

[SupremeKai25]

Goku Black’s potential is no different from Goku’s. They are the same body. What Goku Black has is the genius to know exactly how to draw out said power, but brains isn’t power.

Black's body is 1 year older than Goku's, because when Zamasu stole Goku's body, he used the Time Ring to jump ahead 1 year (due to SDBs having already been used too recently). So Black's body is the body of an older and presumably even more battle-hardened Goku. On top of this, it has the soul of a God inside it, which obviously makes it different from Goku.

but brains isn’t power.

We're talking about potential, the cunning and experience that a fighter possess will allow them to tap into more of their potential. Zamasu is a very cunning fighter, a fighting genius in fact, and he is a Deity. Not only he has access to vast wealth of knowledge of the Godly powers (seen for instance in how he used his Kai regeneration technique to activate Zenkai boosts), he also received formal training from a Supreme Kai.

Uub has the power of the strongest Kaioshin to have ever lived inside his body. That’s potential.

There is no evidence that the Grand Supreme Kai is stronger than Zamasu.

Zamasu was praised as a fighting genius and prodigy by Whis. Despite only being a lowly North Kai, he was hand-picked as successor to the Grand Supreme Kai of U10 based solely on his extraordinary power (very rare for this to happen).

In fact the whole problem of the arc is that Gowasu chose Zamasu not based on his wisdom or kindness, but based on his power level and potential, which were unprecedented for the Kais of his universe.

Goku complimented Zamasu, saying that Shin wouldn't do nearly as well as he did against his SS2 form (which had absorbed God power in Anime btw, which is >>>> anyone from DBZ).

Even if Zamasu was weaker than Grand Supreme Kai (enormous, gigantic IF), he would not be much weaker than him, based on all his hype and accolades. So, if Uub moves up in the scale because of Grand Supreme Kai, so does Zamasu.

It is factual that Uub's potential is immense. Vegeta was shocked and terrified by the energy coming from Uub. Grand Supreme Kai was just that powerful... which bodes very well for Zamasu's position in the potential scale, since he's a Supreme Kai prodigy himself.

The bottom line is that the Supreme Kais are not to be underestimated in terms of potential. Since they are the Gods of Creation, they do not have many reasons to train and grow stronger, because they are not expected to fight dangerous mortals. So they usually aren't the strongest characters (although Shin could have easily oneshot Namek saga Frieza, who was the Universal emperor), but there are some Kais (Zamasu, Grand Supreme Kai, Uub by proxy) with massive potential.

[ZombieVito]

Grand Kaioshin is infact stronger than regular Zamasu unfortunately. One of the reasons I hate the Moro arc and hope it never gets adapted.

[Yuji]

Grand Kaioshin is infact stronger than regular Zamasu unfortunately. One of the reasons I hate the Moro arc and hope it never gets adapted.

What's wrong with that? Z filler already implied South Kaioshin and Grand Kaioshin were somewhere between a Boo arc SS2 and SS3, and now we know Grand Kaioshin wasn't at full power. Zamasu is clearly at a Zamasu arc SS2/3 level, which in the manga at least isn't much stronger than their Boo arc counterparts.

[SupremeKai25]

Grand Kaioshin is infact stronger than regular Zamasu unfortunately. One of the reasons I hate the Moro arc and hope it never gets adapted.

Do not underestimate Zamasu's potential, he was praised by Shin as more skilled than all the Supreme Kais in the Multiverse when he was just an apprentice in-training:

Spoiler:

What is unfortunate is that Zamasu took a cheap shortcut to accomplish his plan, either by taking Goku's body (at which point he forsaken his natural potential as a Kai for Saiyan potential), or Immortality (at which point he no longer had a reason to train and unlock his true potential).

In terms of potential: if Uub, thanks to Grand Supreme Kai, is at the top of the list (and this is factual, Goku will recognize Uub's potential and will train him), where does Zamasu place, considering how skilled and how much of a prodigy he was amongst the Kais?

Grand Kaioshin is infact stronger than regular Zamasu unfortunately. One of the reasons I hate the Moro arc and hope it never gets adapted.

What's wrong with that? Z filler already implied South Kaioshin and Grand Kaioshin were somewhere between a Boo arc SS2 and SS3, and now we know Grand Kaioshin wasn't at full power. Zamasu is clearly at a Zamasu arc SS2/3 level, which in the manga at least isn't much stronger than their Boo arc counterparts.

If you talk about DBZ Anime-only scenes, then you should use DBS Anime as comparison. In DBS Anime, Goku has indeed absorbed the power of God into his Base and normal Super Saiyan forms. Which means that Apprentice Zamasu from the Anime clears DBZ, because he was a worthy fight for DBS SS2 Goku.

In the Manga, Shin was impressed by Zamasu's skill, this is a noteworthy statement.

[Yuji]

I used the filler because it's the only indication we have of the Kaioshins' power but for what its worth Kibitoshin seems confident in taking on Boo after witnessing the SS2s so if he's around that strength level, I can see the manga versions of the stronger Kaioshin being around that tier as well. They'd also have to be somewhat strong enough for Boo to think it's worth it to absorb them. Kid Boo never tried to absorb Goku or Vegeta in the Kaioshin realm. Call it plot armor but he's not as trigger happy with the absorptions as Super Boo was.

The anime has an entirely different scaling system but the Moro arc follows the manga's internal logic. I also think the base God absorption has long been retconned or at the very least is turned on-off depending on the episode, because it is the only way you can make sense out of characters like future Trunks, untrained Gohan, Piccolo, Kuririn, #18 and others having feats that match Goku's base and Super Saiyan forms post BoG arc. The God ki absorption isn't that impressive anymore when you have all these characters matching Goku's post-God forms with minimal to no training.

[ZombieVito]

Grand Kaioshin is infact stronger than regular Zamasu unfortunately. One of the reasons I hate the Moro arc and hope it never gets adapted.

What's wrong with that? Z filler already implied South Kaioshin and Grand Kaioshin were somewhere between a Boo arc SS2 and SS3, and now we know Grand Kaioshin wasn't at full power. Zamasu is clearly at a Zamasu arc SS2/3 level, which in the manga at least isn't much stronger than their Boo arc counterparts.

It undermines Zamasu to wank universe 7.

At least technically Fused Zamasu remains the strongest Kaioshin.

Grand Kaioshin is infact stronger than regular Zamasu unfortunately. One of the reasons I hate the Moro arc and hope it never gets adapted.

What's wrong with that? Z filler already implied South Kaioshin and Grand Kaioshin were somewhere between a Boo arc SS2 and SS3, and now we know Grand Kaioshin wasn't at full power. Zamasu is clearly at a Zamasu arc SS2/3 level, which in the manga at least isn't much stronger than their Boo arc counterparts.

Huh? Maybe they are not as strong as the anime but the base Saiyans are still super strong in the manga. Base Goku is far stronger than Shin by the ToP.

[Yuji]

You could argue base Goku was stronger than Shin in the Boo arc already, it's a pretty hot debate.

[ZombieVito]

You could argue base Goku was stronger than Shin in the Boo arc already, it's a pretty hot debate.

You could but you would be wrong as per Battle of Gods.

[Miracles]

I doubt base Goku in the Buu Saga could "one blow" Freeza.

[Cipher]

Goku Black’s potential is no different from Goku’s. They are the same body. What Goku Black has is the genius to know exactly how to draw out said power, but brains isn’t power.

Goku Black essentially gets a whole new round of near-death-power-ups to use with an already post-U6 Goku body, which is a large part, if not the entirety, of why he's able to skyrocket past the original so quickly.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Black's body is 1 year older than Goku's, because when Zamasu stole Goku's body, he used the Time Ring to jump ahead 1 year (due to SDBs having already been used too recently). So Black's body is the body of an older and presumably even more battle-hardened Goku. On top of this, it has the soul of a God inside it, which obviously makes it different from Goku.

Goku is already fully matured, and there were no battles between the first tournament and Zamasu stealing Goku’s body. If anything he stole a rusty body, since Pre-ToP Goku was out of shape.

but brains isn’t power.

We're talking about potential, the cunning and experience that a fighter possess will allow them to tap into more of their potential. Zamasu is a very cunning fighter, a fighting genius in fact, and he is a Deity. Not only he has access to vast wealth of knowledge of the Godly powers (seen for instance in how he used his Kai regeneration technique to activate Zenkai boosts), he also received formal training from a Supreme Kai.[/quote]

Maybe. The series never explains what’s potential, but I think we’re dealing with latent power - the power that’s sleeping inside someone’s body. “Cunning and experience” makes me think of “genius” instead, since that’s the word Vegeta uses to describe Goku’s superiority over him.

Gohan is often said to have the biggest potential, but he surely has little to no expertise.

Using your parameters Goku Black would certainly be higher, but I think he’d fall to Jiren (He’s undeniably a genius) and Broly (He learned Goku and Vegeta’s fighting styles in one fight! Even Black took a while to learn Goku’s techniques). Gohan and Uub would be at the bottom since their fighting senses are almost inexistent.

There is no evidence that the Grand Supreme Kai is stronger than Zamasu.

Zamasu wasn’t even SSJ3 level, Dai was beating up people stronger than SSJG. As we saw them, Dai > Zamasu.

The bottom line is that the Supreme Kais are not to be underestimated in terms of potential. Since they are the Gods of Creation, they do not have many reasons to train and grow stronger, because they are not expected to fight dangerous mortals. So they usually aren't the strongest characters (although Shin could have easily oneshot Namek saga Frieza, who was the Universal emperor), but there are some Kais (Zamasu, Grand Supreme Kai, Uub by proxy) with massive potential.

I agree. Even Shin would’ve been fairly powerful if he showed up one saga earlier. But here’s the thing:

1) Goku > Zamasu. Zamasu all but admitted Goku’s body was more capable than his when he stole it. Saiyans are the most gifted race in the series, the Shinjin aren’t even meant to fight and even Zamasu can only go so far.

2) Oob’s potential isn’t just Dai Kaioshin’s… otherwise he’d fall behind Goku. Majin Boo himself is incredibly powerful. Before the Moro Saga, Boo’s power alone was the whole reason for Oob’s hype. Dai was just included to help him keep up with gods.

Goku Black essentially gets a whole new round of near-death-power-ups to use with an already post-U6 Goku body, which is a large part, if not the entirety, of why he's able to skyrocket past the original so quickly.

But is that not Goku’s dormant power he’s drawing? Goku can’t get zenkais anymore, but I imagine Goku would reach those levels sooner or later.

[Hugo Boss]

But is that not Goku’s dormant power he’s drawing? Goku can’t get zenkais anymore, but I imagine Goku would reach those levels sooner or later.

My take is that Goku Black needs stimulus to reach the level of power Goku would have if he was exactly as he was before the bodies were switched. This is a Goku who would have more experience and time to get stronger than our Goku, but our Goku would also improve faster due to a dire situation, which is unknown if it was experienced by that Goku that Zamasu took over.