Make sense for me please (timelines)

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:04 pm

Well, it's not like the Daizenshû's "explanation" ever made a lot of sense anyway...

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 1:59 am

Olivier Hague wrote:Well, it's not like the Daizenshû's "explanation" ever made a lot of sense anyway...

Hence why the Landmark removed the TL4 Cell mistake.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 2:57 am

Yeah, but if I remember well, the new explanation doesn't quite make sense either. ^_^;

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:12 am

Olivier Hague wrote:Yeah, but if I remember well, the new explanation doesn't quite make sense either. ^_^;

I was under the impression that it was identical, minus the random TL4 Cell Games.

Basically the WRITTEN explanation of the Daizenshuu's version of the timelines is the flawless one.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:25 am

Flawless? Not as far as I remember...

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:35 am

Olivier Hague wrote:Yeah, but if I remember well, the new explanation doesn't quite make sense either. ^_^;

The only problem I see is the Cell Game in time line 4, and that was removed in Landmark.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:42 pm

Hello. I`m new here.

As my first post I would like to tell what I think about the different timelines in Dragon Ball.

Basically, I think that when a time travel event occurs, it creates at least 2 different realities that both exist and are parallel to one another.

As such we can have one reality with no time travel events.

And we can have two realities where a time travel event occured

This was what happened inicially in Dragon Ball when Trunks time travelled and killed Freeza.
In time line 1 Goku kills Freeza but dies of a dicease and the cyborgs kill most of the heroes.

In timeline 2 however, trunks kills Freeza and saves Goku from the dicease and tells him about the cyborgs. These actions will have a kind of butterfly affect and will change everything even in unexpected outcomes. For example, the cyborgs being stronger. I don`t know exactily why the actions of trunks resulted in these. However, it did, due to a butterfly effect kind of a way.

After those actions Trunks returned to the future. However his machine did not take him to the future of the time line 2. It took him to his original timeline (time line 1). Which implies that both realities exist and each has it`s own timeline.

When he returned (to the past but on reality/timeline 2) he noticed that his actions had unexpected consequences and eventually he found more cyborgs and that they were stronger than he was used to.

You know as well as I do the storyline of Dragon Ball so I don`t have to tell you what happened.

They were defeated by the cyborgs but not killed as goku recovered at home.

They were thinking of a way of destroying the cyborgs when Cell came along.

However, to truly understand the timelines we have to think what would have happened if Cell didn`t appear.

They were thinking of a way to destroy the cyborgs. Someone, possibly bulma, suggested that they must have a weakness. So someone remembered to go to the semi-destroyed lab of Dr. Gero in search of clues.

And what do they find? The basement with the blueprints to the remote control that shuts down the cyborgs. Probably they found Cell too. But in this reality (timeline 2) Cell hadn`t appeared and explained anything. They dind`t know what it was. Problaby thought it was only a sick experiment. As such they destroyed everything in there, including Cell, and took the blueprints.

After this we don`t know exactily what happened. All we know is that the cyborg threat ended and trunks returned to his timeline with the remote, hoping that it would work against his own cyborgs.
How the cyborg threat ended we don`t know exactily. Possibly they used the remote on them. Problably Trunks used it (despite kuririn protests) because he hated them the most.
We don`t know if Kami and Piccolo fused in this reality, because one of the things that made kami fuse was the mistery of Cell and his kills which did not exist in this reality.

So Thrunks returned to the timeline 1 and destroyed his cyborgs with the remote. However, he was surprised by Cell, fully grown, who killed him and time travelled, creating with this action another parallel reality/timeline and changed everything yet again, including Trunks.

It created Timeline 3, the timeline of the manga/anime. The one we all know and love. In this reality the fighters were all forced to become stronger in order to survive. Eventually Gohan killed Cell.

And thus, Trunks returned home again. However, this was not the same trunks that would have returned to the timeline 1 if he wasn`t subjected to the time travel event created by Cell and his travel. As a result he was much stronger and different. Consequently, when he returned home, there was another reality split creating another reality. In this reality he was strong enought to destroy with his own hands the cyborgs and Cell.

Both Trunks from Timeline 2 and from Timeline 3 arrive at Timeline 1 at the same time to get rid of the cyborgs. But since Trunks from Timeline 3 was subjected to change because of the time travel event which originated in this time line, it creates another parallel reality.
We could say that the universe resolves the problems of paradox that time travel creates by creating a new reality everytime a eventual paradox emerges.

That is my point of view. Fell free to not agree with me, of course.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:59 pm

rereboy wrote:what do they find? The basement with the blueprints to the remote control that shuts down the cyborgs. Probably they found Cell too.

It would probably be better if they didn't... If they did find Cell, that would mean that Trunks learned about him, got back in his timeline, and eventually got killed anyway. How careless of him.

So Thrunks returned to the timeline 1 and destroyed his cyborgs with the remote. However, he was surprised by Cell, fully grown, who killed him and time travelled, creating with this action another parallel reality/timeline and changed everything yet again, including Trunks.

Unfortunately, that doesn't work. Cell got further back in time than Trunks ever did. And the situation is quite a bit more complicated because of that...
Would Future Trunks still appear in the new timeline created by Cell? I wouldn't think so. So we'd end up with a new alternate timeline similar to the one where Gokû defeated Freeza and Cold, except there would be two Cells.
And the future Trunks we know would have to be from the future of that new timeline. Which means something has to happen to Future Cell at some point, so that Trunks would never hear about him before jumping in the Time Machine for the first time.
A lot of fanwank is needed at that point, obviously...

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:58 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
rereboy wrote:what do they find? The basement with the blueprints to the remote control that shuts down the cyborgs. Probably they found Cell too.
It would probably be better if they didn't... If they did find Cell, that would mean that Trunks learned about him, got back in his timeline, and eventually got killed anyway. How careless of him.

Why not? They never heard about Cell before. They had no clue what it was, or if it was dangerous. However IF thrunks had the foresight to think that it WAS dangerous, than what would he do?

He would destroy it and take the blueprints. Which I assume he did in my post.

And IF he had the foresight to assume it would maybe exist in his own time what would he do? He would take the remote do destroy the cyborgs and be on the lookout for any danger. Possibly even travel to Dr. Gero lab and check it out. But would that change anything? I don`t think so. Cell was stronger than him. He would kill him no matter what.

So Thrunks returned to the timeline 1 and destroyed his cyborgs with the remote. However, he was surprised by Cell, fully grown, who killed him and time travelled, creating with this action another parallel reality/timeline and changed everything yet again, including Trunks.

Unfortunately, that doesn't work. Cell got further back in time than Trunks ever did. And the situation is quite a bit more complicated because of that...
Would Future Trunks still appear in the new timeline created by Cell? I wouldn't think so. So we'd end up with a new alternate timeline similar to the one where Gokû defeated Freeza and Cold, except there would be two Cells.
And the future Trunks we know would have to be from the future of that new timeline. Which means something has to happen to Future Cell at some point, so that Trunks would never hear about him before jumping in the Time Machine for the first time.
A lot of fanwank is needed at that point, obviously...

I know he did. But I only divided the timelines when we first found out about Cell because before that point, Cell presence did not affect anything. Nobody saw him, nobody knew he was there, since he was in hibernation in a isolated place.

If I confused you with the graphic I apologize.

However, I fail to understand your doubts regarding the matter.

In my view, Cell time travelled to the past of Timeline 2 (before trunks appeared). The past of timeline 2 (before trunks appeared) is exactily the same as the past of Timeline 1 (before trunks would have appeared) but they belong to different realities.

When Cell time travelled he travelled not to Timeline 1 but to Timeline 2 (which we know is the one where trunks killed Freeza.

I`ll redo the graphic so it will be more clear.

As you can see, each reality has its own timeline, even if it is identical at others timeline in portion. This has to do with time.
However, the realities are only created at a particular time due to a time travel event, because they create paradox, and such, the creation of another reality is necessary. However each reality has its own timeline that reaches back and forth. To the past and to the future.

When Cell time travelled he went to the past of timeline 2. I believe this happens because the machine is programmed to do so, the same way it returns to timeline 1, instead of the future of timeline 2. And we know that the machine is capable of doing so because after telling Goku about the cyborgs and leaving to his reality, trunks returned not to the past of timeline 1 but to timeline 2.
When Cell time travelled he merery changed the date.

However, since it is a time travel event, Cell`s arrival created Timeline 3. But basically the timeline is the same as Timeline 2. Except for Cell`s presence. While he grows, the events take place, all exactily the same as of those of Timeline 2, because until then, Cell`s hadn`t interfered in anything. However he existed and that was enought to create that reality separe from timeline 2. Only when he starts killings people the events in this timeline become very different from those of Timeline 2.

read above.

I apologize to those of you who might have felt confused by my previous graphics. However, I think this one clarifies the matter along with my explanation.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:29 am

rereboy wrote:IF he had the foresight to assume it would maybe exist in his own time

Well, Trunks does seem a bit dense, sometimes, but it would be nice of him to think of that. ^_^;

what would he do? He would take the remote do destroy the cyborgs and be on the lookout for any danger. Possibly even travel to Dr. Gero lab and check it out. But would that change anything? I don`t think so. Cell was stronger than him. He would kill him no matter what.

I dunno. In the end of the Cell arc, we can see that Cell doesn't show up to kill Trunks and steal the time machine for several years, right? Wouldn't that imply Cell wasn't "operational" yet when Trunks went back in his own timeline? Wouldn't that be an opportunity?

Of course, one could also wonder why the Trunks-Who-Survived didn't do just that instead of simply waiting for Cell... That does seem a bit careless, even if he was confident he could take him: what if Cell had killed some "civilians" on his way to the time machine?
Maybe we can infer that Cell (somehow?) wasn't at the lab anymore at that point in time... in which case, I guess the Trunks-Who-Died could indeed get killed by Cell, even if he knew about his existence...

I only divided the timelines when we first found out about Cell because before that point, Cell presence did not affect anything. Nobody saw him, nobody knew he was there, since he was in hibernation in a isolated place.

I don't see why the laws of time travel (whatever they may be) should care about what people notice. ^^;
But yeah, I see that you then explain that you do consider the two timelines to be separate, simply identical prior to Cell's arrival (and the branching), and extremely similar up to his actual appearance...

In my view, Cell time travelled to the past of Timeline 2 (before trunks appeared).

But why timeline 2 specifically?

When Cell time travelled he went to the past of timeline 2. I believe this happens because the machine is programmed to do so, the same way it returns to timeline 1, instead of the future of timeline 2. And we know that the machine is capable of doing so because after telling Goku about the cyborgs and leaving to his reality, trunks returned not to the past of timeline 1 but to timeline 2.

Weird thing being, Trunks apparently didn't expect to be back in his own timeline. I guess we could explain that away by saying Bulma did expect that and Trunks simply didn't pay attention to her explanations, but... Well, that would basically mean that we have a time machine that can be programmed to jump to specific timelines, and a pilot absolutely clueless about that "detail" (but who somehow still managed to go back to his own timeline instead of going in the future of the new timeline he just created). Huh.

When Cell time travelled he merery changed the date.

I believe the manga specifically states that Cell didn't change anything, actually. I guess that could be chalked up to the time machine being a bit screwy (Trunks does mention that at one point, right?), but still... a full year?
I believe I tried to explain that one away in an earlier topic, by coming up with an explanation as to why the Trunks-Who-Died was trying to go even further back in time than he did the first time around... I don't quite remember how it went, nor if it really made sense though. ^_^;

Anyway, I believe I can see what you're getting at...
I'm just a bot bothered with three details (that I can think of right now):

1) A time machine that can be programmed to jump to specific timelines, and a pilot who's not aware of that fact but still managed to use the feature to go home.
'Could be explained away by Bulma having "pre-programmed" the time machine to jump back in the first timeline, and then having a little talk with her son about that detail upon his first return... but still. ^^;

2) A "timeline 2b" created by Future Cell that somehow "knows" that Future Trunks is supposed to appear a year later "just like in timeline 2", despite the fact there's no causality for this event to occur (Trunks travelled to timeline 2, not to Cell's timeline 2b, right?).

3) What happens when Future Trunks gets back in his timeline? Does he create a new timeline? The fact we end up with a future where Trunks gets killed and another where he doesn't seems to imply that branching does occur (... I think...? ^^;), but what does that mean for Future Bulma, then? Do we have a bunch of Future Bulmas still waiting for Trunks to come back? ^^;

Post by **Herms** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:44 am

Olivier Hague wrote: I believe the manga specifically states that Cell didn't change anything, actually. I guess that could be chalked up to the time machine being a bit screwy (Trunks does mention that at one point, right?), but still... a full year?

Yeah, when Piccolo asks him why he came to this era, Cell says the machine was already programmed to come here, and that he simply pushed the button, or something like that. Piccolo then thinks to himself that Trunks must have been planning to come tell them he had defeated the androids in his timeline. (sorry if any of that was already mentioned, I didn't read through much of the long timeline explanations)

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:52 am

Herms wrote:Piccolo then thinks to himself that Trunks must have been planning to come tell them he had defeated the androids in his timeline.

Ah, yes. I think I can remember part of my theory about this, now...
Basically, I speculated that the Trunks-Who-Died had planned to go further back in time in order to give them the remote he used against the Androids and help them achieve a quick, painless victory. Which only works if the fight against the Androids went significantly worse for him (several casualties? no more Dragon Balls?) than it did for the Trunks-Who-Survived, since the latter seems content with the way things are, at the end of the Cell arc.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:28 am

Olivier Hague wrote:
rereboy wrote:IF he had the foresight to assume it would maybe exist in his own time
Well, Trunks does seem a bit dense, sometimes, but it would be nice of him to think of that. ^_^;

what would he do? He would take the remote do destroy the cyborgs and be on the lookout for any danger. Possibly even travel to Dr. Gero lab and check it out. But would that change anything? I don`t think so. Cell was stronger than him. He would kill him no matter what.
I dunno. In the end of the Cell arc, we can see that Cell doesn't show up to kill Trunks and steal the time machine for several years, right? Wouldn't that imply Cell wasn't "operational" yet when Trunks went back in his own timeline? Wouldn't that be an opportunity?

If my memory serves me correctely, Cell spent a large amount of time looking for the cyborgs in his own time. So that time could mean he was looking for the cyborgs, but be fully operational.
And that is what I think.

Of course, one could also wonder why the Trunks-Who-Survived didn't do just that instead of simply waiting for Cell... That does seem a bit careless, even if he was confident he could take him: what if Cell had killed some "civilians" on his way to the time machine?
Maybe we can infer that Cell (somehow?) wasn't at the lab anymore at that point in time... in which case, I guess the Trunks-Who-Died could indeed get killed by Cell, even if he knew about his existence...

The only time Cell is vulnerable is when is at a larva or caccon state. In my opinion when Trunks came back to his timeline, Cell had already developed past that state or was on the verge of doing so.
The first thing Trunks would do was get rid of the cyborgs. And he did that. After that he maybe looked for Cell in the lab.
But there is one thing we know about Cell... If he doesnt want to be found he wont be found.
Thats why even Piccolo fused with Kami couldn`t find him when he was semi-hiding while killing people in Timeline 3.
If he couldn`t do it, why would Trunks be able to do it?
And Cell was stronger than he. So, no matter the sequence of events, Trunks would get killed.
Remember, even if he thought the larva he might have seen in timeline 2 was dangerous, he had no way of knowing how powerfull it would be. And that also helps in getting him killed.

I only divided the timelines when we first found out about Cell because before that point, Cell presence did not affect anything. Nobody saw him, nobody knew he was there, since he was in hibernation in a isolated place.
I don't see why the laws of time travel (whatever they may be) should care about what people notice. ^^;
But yeah, I see that you then explain that you do consider the two timelines to be separate, simply identical prior to Cell's arrival (and the branching), and extremely similar up to his actual appearance...

I made a confusing graphic. I'm sorry about that. The laws of reality and time travel dont care about what people notice of course... But I only divided them afterwards because thay were extremely similiar. The only variant, Cells presence. Anyhow, the newest graphic rectifies that.

In my view, Cell time travelled to the past of Timeline 2 (before trunks appeared).
But why timeline 2 specifically?

First, because that`s the only explanation that makes sense. If he had travelled to timeline 1, we would have created another reality but in that rality Trunks wouldn`t appear to kill Freeza and etc.
Second because I believe the Timemachine is programmed to do so.

When Cell time travelled he went to the past of timeline 2. I believe this happens because the machine is programmed to do so, the same way it returns to timeline 1, instead of the future of timeline 2. And we know that the machine is capable of doing so because after telling Goku about the cyborgs and leaving to his reality, trunks returned not to the past of timeline 1 but to timeline 2.
Weird thing being, Trunks apparently didn't expect to be back in his own timeline. I guess we could explain that away by saying Bulma did expect that and Trunks simply didn't pay attention to her explanations, but... Well, that would basically mean that we have a time machine that can be programmed to jump to specific timelines, and a pilot absolutely clueless about that "detail" (but who somehow still managed to go back to his own timeline instead of going in the future of the new timeline he just created). Huh.

Well, in my personal view, Bulma would of course know about that. But let me clarify something here. I do not think that Trunks time machine can jump to specific Timelines at will like a machine that jumps to parallel worlds. No.

I think that what happens is merely a phenomenon of time travel.

When Trunks time travels the very first time, he time travels to timeline 1, but that creates a paradox, of course (because if he altered things in timeline 1, he would not exist as he knew himself), so the result is the creation of another timeline where things are different (timeline 2). After this, Trunks time machine can only travel to timeline 2 (when going to the past) and time line 1 when going to the future.
I dont know why it happens this way. Maybe its the only way time travel is possible, maybe its just the way Bulma built the machine.
However, we can find evidence of this in the manga/anime, because everytime the machine travels after the original travel, if we pay attention, we will see that it has travelled to timeline 2 or timeline 1 but creating other realities whenever a paradox emerges.

For exemple... Due to Cells interfence, main story Trunks, exists in Timeline 3. If we would use his machine to go to the past it would be on Timeline 3. However he doesnt want to do that, because that may result in even more powerfull cyborgs or other unexpected surprises. It woundn`t change anything. Just create another reality with unexpected results. I don`t know if he exactily knows this, but he decides its too dangerous.

When he (Trunks) returns home , after main story cell is destroyed, its on timeline 1, but because of the paradox, it creates another reality. So now, at this time, the machine can only travel between timeline 4 and timeline 3 (even if portions of that timelines are identical to portions of other timelines). It can only travel between this realities (eventually creating new ones) because the time travel events have lead the machine to come in sync with these realities. These are the realities the machine last visited, and the only reason why it visited them, was because of the necessary reality split that occurs and puts the time machine in that reality.

(Also, on a side note, it is possible that everytime he uses the machine, it created another reality. For example the second time he returned to the past to timeline 2 (where goku and friends were fighting the cyborgs, its possible that created a Timeline 2b, being the correct Timeline 2 one where trunks didn`t return. However that doesn`t create a obvious paradox, so lets just assume, that it doesn`t create a new timeline in that instant because it doesn`t create any paradox. All other timeline splits originated because there was a paradox present due to the time travel event. So I think a paradox is needed to create another reality.)

When Cell time travelled he merery changed the date.
I believe the manga specifically states that Cell didn't change anything, actually. I guess that could be chalked up to the time machine being a bit screwy (Trunks does mention that at one point, right?), but still... a full year?
I believe I tried to explain that one away in an earlier topic, by coming up with an explanation as to why the Trunks-Who-Died was trying to go even further back in time than he did the first time around... I don't quite remember how it went, nor if it really made sense though. ^_^;

We can only speculate... As I have explained, the machine went to Timeline 2 because it was in sync with that reality. As for the date... We can only speculate. Maybe Cell pushed some button or maybe the time was already set... We can only speculate. However, doing so created Timeline 3, because it created a paradox. And thus, the machine became in sync with timeline 3.

Anyway, I believe I can see what you're getting at...
I'm just a bot bothered with three details (that I can think of right now):

1) A time machine that can be programmed to jump to specific timelines, and a pilot who's not aware of that fact but still managed to use the feature to go home.
'Could be explained away by Bulma having "pre-programmed" the time machine to jump back in the first timeline, and then having a little talk with her son about that detail upon his first return... but still. ^^;

I think that my explanation above suffices to explain my view on the matter. It can not jump to specific timelines. Only the last one it was in sync with due to the phenomenon of time travel.

2) A "timeline 2b" created by Future Cell that somehow "knows" that Future Trunks is supposed to appear a year later "just like in timeline 2", despite the fact there's no causality for this event to occur (Trunks travelled to timeline 2, not to Cell's timeline 2b, right?).

I honestly didn`t understand the question. Timeline 2b? Main strory Cell is from Timeline 1... Maybe you could explain it a little better for me to understand

3) What happens when Future Trunks gets back in his timeline? Does he create a new timeline? The fact we end up with a future where Trunks gets killed and another where he doesn't seems to imply that branching does occur (... I think...? ^^;), but what does that mean for Future Bulma, then? Do we have a bunch of Future Bulmas still waiting for Trunks to come back? ^^;

When main story Trunks gets back to his time, its creates Timeline 4. Why? Because it creates a paradox. He returned to Timeline 1 but to a point before the cyborgs were destroyed. And he is strong enough to defeat Cell. If he changed the events of Timeline 1, then Cell would never time travel, and Trunks would never become so strong, which would made it impossible for him to kill Cell. See? A paradox. It can`t happen.

So theres a timeline split and timeline 4 is created. One where Trunks kills Cell and the Cyborgs.

Timeline 1 is probaby the saddest Timeline. In it goku kills freeza but dies of dicease. Mosts fighters are killed by the cyborgs. And just when trunks finally succeds in getting rid of the cyborgs he gets killed by Cell who then timetravels, leaving this timeline with no fighters and a lonely Bulma, who never finds out who killed her son. (I`m assuming she finds Trunks body and doesn`t get killed by Cell).

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:37 pm

rereboy wrote:
In the end of the Cell arc, we can see that Cell doesn't show up to kill Trunks and steal the time machine for several years, right? Wouldn't that imply Cell wasn't "operational" yet when Trunks went back in his own timeline? Wouldn't that be an opportunity?
If my memory serves me correctely, Cell spent a large amount of time looking for the cyborgs in his own time. So that time could mean he was looking for the cyborgs, but be fully operational.

I seem to remember he shows up three years after Trunks' return though. That's a really long time.

Oh, well. It's not the worst issue in that story arc, and I'm entirely willing to assume that the Trunks-Who-Died simply couldn't destroy his timeline's Cell right off the bat for the same reason the Trunks-Who-Survived didn't: Cell wasn't at the lab anymore. 'Sounds like a satisfactory solution.

But why timeline 2 specifically?
First, because that`s the only explanation that makes sense. If he had travelled to timeline 1, we would have created another reality but in that rality Trunks wouldn`t appear to kill Freeza and etc.

And that, to me, would make more sense. It's certainly bothersome because you'd then have to explain what went on in that new timeline for Future Cell to not interfere in any major way until Trunks bids farewell to his mother... but I think it would make more sense overall.

Second because I believe the Timemachine is programmed to do so.

Well, it would help if we knew what exactly the Trunks-Who-Died was planning to do with the time machine before he got killed by Cell...
Why go further back in time?

When Trunks time travels the very first time, he time travels to timeline 1, but that creates a paradox, of course (because if he altered things in timeline 1, he would not exist as he knew himself), so the result is the creation of another timeline where things are different (timeline 2). After this, Trunks time machine can only travel to timeline 2 (when going to the past) and time line 1 when going to the future.

But why? Why could it only go to timeline 2 (or rather the "latest" timeline, right?) when going to the past? Isn't that a strange limitation?

Not to mention you could cheat quite easily with the rules you just listed:

Trunks is in AD 2009 (timeline 1).
He goes in the past to AD 2000 (creating timeline 2).
He then goes home (AD 2009 / timeline 1).

So far, so good, right?

But what if he then did this:

Trunks is in AD 2009 (timeline 1).
He goes in the past to AD 2001. Since he went back in time, he ended up in timeline 2, according to your rules, and branched it into... let's call it "timeline 2b", since it's derived from timeline 2.

... And that would be as if he had travelled in the future of timeline 2 (from AD 2000 to AD 2001).
First loophole.

Let's say he then goes, say, five years in the future. Since he goes in the future, he goes back to timeline 1, according to your rules. But in AD 2006.

... And that would be as if he had travelled in the past of his own timeline for a second time (from AD 2009 to AD 2006). The new timeline would be derived from timeline 1 (just like timeline 2 was), not from timeline 2 or 2b.
Second loophole.

on a side note, it is possible that everytime he uses the machine, it created another reality.

Well, I would think so.

A "timeline 2b" created by Future Cell that somehow "knows" that Future Trunks is supposed to appear a year later "just like in timeline 2", despite the fact there's no causality for this event to occur (Trunks travelled to timeline 2, not to Cell's timeline 2b, right?).
I honestly didn`t understand the question. Timeline 2b? Main strory Cell is from Timeline 1...

I'm not talking about the timeline Future Cell is from, I'm talking about the one he ends up creating by going into the past.
According to your theory, he would end up in timeline 2 (the one created by Trunks), but he would immediately branch it into a new timeline, which I called "2b" (rather than "3", to emphasize the fact it would be derived from timeline 2).

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:55 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
rereboy wrote:
In the end of the Cell arc, we can see that Cell doesn't show up to kill Trunks and steal the time machine for several years, right? Wouldn't that imply Cell wasn't "operational" yet when Trunks went back in his own timeline? Wouldn't that be an opportunity?
If my memory serves me correctely, Cell spent a large amount of time looking for the cyborgs in his own time. So that time could mean he was looking for the cyborgs, but be fully operational.
I seem to remember he shows up three years after Trunks' return though. That's a really long time.

Oh, well. It's not the worst issue in that story arc, and I'm entirely willing to assume that the Trunks-Who-Died simply couldn't destroy his timeline's Cell right off the bat for the same reason the Trunks-Who-Survived didn't: Cell wasn't at the lab anymore. 'Sounds like a satisfactory solution.

Honestly, I dont remember how long it took for Cell to go look for Trunks. But like I said, whatever the sequence of events, Cell would kill Trunks no matter what.

But why timeline 2 specifically?
First, because that`s the only explanation that makes sense. If he had travelled to timeline 1, we would have created another reality but in that rality Trunks wouldn`t appear to kill Freeza and etc.
And that, to me, would make more sense. It's certainly bothersome because you'd then have to explain what went on in that new timeline for Future Cell to not interfere in any major way until Trunks bids farewell to his mother... but I think it would make more sense overall.

Going to Timeline 1 doesn`t make sense because of what we know that happened in the show/manga.

Cell time travelled and went back in time before Trunks ever appeared. But if it was to timeline 1, then Trunks wouldn`t appear since the reality created by that time travel would be equal to timeline 1 except for Cell early presence.

As we know from the show/manga Cell went to a time line where trunks appeared and defeated freeza and etc. Therefore it could only have travel to timeline 2, since this was the time line the timemachine had created in its previous travel and to which the machine was in synnc to. However, by timetravelling to Timeline 2, Cell creates Timeline 3 (the main story).

Second because I believe the Timemachine is programmed to do so.
Well, it would help if we knew what exactly the Trunks-Who-Died was planning to do with the time machine before he got killed by Cell...
Why go further back in time?

Like I said, we can only speculate. There`s dozens of possibilites. The only thing that matters is he didn`t go, but Cell did.

When Trunks time travels the very first time, he time travels to timeline 1, but that creates a paradox, of course (because if he altered things in timeline 1, he would not exist as he knew himself), so the result is the creation of another timeline where things are different (timeline 2). After this, Trunks time machine can only travel to timeline 2 (when going to the past) and time line 1 when going to the future.
But why? Why could it only go to timeline 2 (or rather the "latest" timeline, right?) when going to the past? Isn't that a strange limitation?

I don`t think it is a strange limitation, at all. It is a timemachine after all. Because in my view, to time travel "saffely" one has to make the machine follow certain rules. If a machine causes another reality to be created, the machine and its user necessary become part of the timeline they just created. If the machine could timetravel and jump realities, can you imagine the consequences and unexpected results? There would be realities forming in every direction and with no way of telling what would happen. Not even bulma would be able to tell what would happen... Nobody had timetravel and created that many realities and visitied so many parallel worlds before... As far as we know that could have caused the universe to explode.

But here I am assuming that bulma made the Timemachine like that on purpose.

But we know nothing of time travel... So maybe bulma didnt create the machine this way. Instead maybe it is the only way its works. It is a Time Machine. Not a parallel worlds machine. As far as we know, maybe the machine can only go to parallel worlds due to the consequent effects of reality split that its travels originates. So It can only go to the last reality associated with its last timetravel.

Basically, I reject the idea that it can go to any reality it chooses, because everytime we see it travel and we see people talking about it, everything is done quite automatically, like the reality is already determined, and the question of going to other realities never emerges. All we hear is about goint to the future and past.

Not to mention you could cheat quite easily with the rules you just listed:

Trunks is in AD 2009 (timeline 1).
He goes in the past to AD 2000 (creating timeline 2).
He then goes home (AD 2009 / timeline 1).

So far, so good, right?

But what if he then did this:

Trunks is in AD 2009 (timeline 1).
He goes in the past to AD 2001. Since he went back in time, he ended up in timeline 2, according to your rules, and branched it into... let's call it "timeline 2b", since it's derived from timeline 2.

... And that would be as if he had travelled in the future of timeline 2 (from AD 2000 to AD 2001).
First loophole.

Why is there a loophole?
Trunks did this in the manga/series.

He first killed Freeza and saved Goku, Then he returned home to Timeline 1. Then he travelled again to the past but it was still Timeline 2 (goku was saved and everybody remembered him) but it was some time after his first intervention. It was when he first saw other cyborgs. As you can see he basicaly went to the future of timeline 2 but only because it was still in the past (compared to the point in time where he was. He had to travel to the past). He went to timeline 2 because the time machine past travel was set on Timeline 2, while the future setting was set on timeline 1. I developed this theory of mine precisely by watching the show/manga which seems to sugest what I`m saying.
As you can tell your example is identical to something that happened in the series/manga and is consistent to my theory.

I dont know if that second time travel created another reality, since there is no apparent paradox. However, that doesn`t matter to the point that I`m making, and I already talked about the possibility of existing a Timeline 2b due to this timetravel

Let's say he then goes, say, five years in the future. Since he goes in the future, he goes back to timeline 1, according to your rules. But in AD 2006.

... And that would be as if he had travelled in the past of his own timeline for a second time (from AD 2009 to AD 2006). The new timeline would be derived from timeline 1 (just like timeline 2 was), not from timeline 2 or 2b.
Second loophole.

If he did that, he would created another reality like he did at the end of the Cell saga when he returned to his timeline to a point where the cyborgs were not yet destroyed.
Timeline 4 was only created because there was a paradox. Trunks was strong enough to kill Cell. But if he did, then Cell wouldnt have time travelled and trunks would never get to be that strong and would not kill Cell. See? Thats why Timeline 4 was created. Because there was a paradox.
If he went further into the future he would be on timeline 1 and no paradox would emerge. There would not be any problems with continuity. So problably Trunks would be on Timeline 1 instead of another one created by the time travel since there would be no paradox. I find the situation similar to the second time travel by trunks. Maybe it created a timeline 2b and this situation maybe would have created a timeline 1b. However thats not really important, since it does not cause us any problem with continuity, and so we do not have to dwell so heavilly on the matter.
Anyway, If Trunks did what you said, he would create another reality because probably it would create a paradox. But why is that a lopphole? Its exactily the same situation as the creation of Timeline 4. And as such the manga/shows supports that it is possible and that would be what would happen.

on a side note, it is possible that everytime he uses the machine, it created another reality.
Well, I would think so.

That is very possible. However, even considering that, the only thing to add is the inclusion of other realities. Namely timeline 2b (in which Trunks didn`t appear a second time. That Timeline however in unknow to us and we have no idea what would have happened, and it offers no further complications regarding the time travel issue. Basically my theory is still valid and aplies all the same, we just end up with more timelines in the graphic.

A "timeline 2b" created by Future Cell that somehow "knows" that Future Trunks is supposed to appear a year later "just like in timeline 2", despite the fact there's no causality for this event to occur (Trunks travelled to timeline 2, not to Cell's timeline 2b, right?).
I honestly didn`t understand the question. Timeline 2b? Main strory Cell is from Timeline 1...
I'm not talking about the timeline Future Cell is from, I'm talking about the one he ends up creating by going into the past.
According to your theory, he would end up in timeline 2 (the one created by Trunks), but he would immediately branch it into a new timeline, which I called "2b" (rather than "3", to emphasize the fact it would be derived from timeline 2).

When Cell from Timeline 1 Timetravels to Timeline 2 it creates Timeline 3 (the timeline of the main story. The story we read about, watched and loved). In this timeline, Timeline 3`s Cell was destroyed by Trunks and kuririn after Timeline 1`s Cell tells Piccolo about his origins. They go to Dr. Gero Lab and destroy the lab along with Timeline 3`s Cell while taking the blueprints. Timeline 1`s Cell was later destroyed by SSJ2 Gohan.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:01 pm

(it would be nice if you could quote properly ^^;)

rereboy wrote:like I said, whatever the sequence of events, Cell would kill Trunks no matter what.

Er... It's not like we really know anything about Cell's status/power at the point of Trunks' return...

Cell time travelled and went back in time before Trunks ever appeared. But if it was to timeline 1, then Trunks wouldn`t appear since the reality created by that time travel would be equal to timeline 1 except for Cell early presence.

I know that. I've said as much. My point being that the Future Trunks we know would actually originate from this timeline, not from the "first timeline".

Trunks goes back in time, gets a remote to stop the Androids in his timeline, goes home, uses the remote... but gets killed by Cell who steals the time machine.
Cell goes back further in time, branching a new timeline from the original timeline rather than from the timeline created by Trunks (basically undoing everything Trunks did in the process). The new timeline is extremely similar to the original timeline, except for the fact Future Cell is there. For some reason (that would require much fanwank... a possible butterfly effect of Future Cell's presence would be that Piccolo and Kami-Sama would merge in this timeline, whereas they didn't in the original one?), Future Cell doesn't significantly alter the course of events, Trunks grows up in a barren world, never hears anything about Future Cell, and decides to go back in time. This would be the Future Trunks we know. He goes back in time in a world where Future Cell is already hidden underground. The events of the manga follow.

Basically, your theory is based on the idea that the new timeline created by Future Cell would branch from the latest timeline created by Future Trunks, whereas I believe going further back in time than Future Trunks should result in a new timeline branched from the original timeline.

As we know from the show/manga Cell went to a time line where trunks appeared and defeated freeza and etc.

I don't believe the manga said anything about that, actually.

I don`t think it is a strange limitation, at all. It is a timemachine after all.

I've read about better time machines than that! ^^

in my view, to time travel "saffely" one has to make the machine follow certain rules.

But like I said in my previous post, the rules you gave can be broken very easily...

If the machine could timetravel and jump realities, can you imagine the consequences and unexpected results?

'Sounds like a regular time machine to me. ;þ

Trunks is in AD 2009 (timeline 1).
He goes in the past to AD 2001. Since he went back in time, he ended up in timeline 2, according to your rules, and branched it into... let's call it "timeline 2b", since it's derived from timeline 2.

... And that would be as if he had travelled in the future of timeline 2 (from AD 2000 to AD 2001).
First loophole.
Why is there a loophole?
Trunks did this in the manga/series.

Indeed! :þ
So there goes your rule about not being able to travel in the future of your newly created timeline.

As you can see he basicaly went to the future of timeline 2

That was pretty much my point, yes.

but only because it was still in the past (compared with his own time).

Basically, according to your rules, he'd only have to travel to, say, AD 999.999.999.999 in his own timeline to then be able to navigate at will in timeline 2. As long as it's "in the past compared with his own time". ;þ
Those are flimsy "rules". ^^

I dont know if that second time travel created another reality, since there is no apparent paradox.

Like I said, I'd think any time travel should create a new timeline. You apparently think otherwise.
Could you describe a situation where no new timeline would be created? Where there would be "no apparent paradox", according to you?
How is Trunks going back in time to give Gokû his medicine (first trip) any different from Trunks going back in time to help him and his friends against the Androids (second trip), for example?

If he did that, he would created another reality like he did when at the end of the Cell saga when he returned to his timeline to a point where the cyborgs were not yet destroyed.

Yup. A new timeline derived from the original timeline, not from the latest timeline, despite the fact the branching point would be located before Trunks' starting point. Here lies the loophole.

If he went further into the future he would be on timeline 1 and no paradox would emerge. There would not be any problems with continuity.

Again, 'not sure how you can say that...

When Cell from Timeline 1 Timetravels to Timeline 2 it creates Timeline 3 (the timeline of the main story). In this timeline, Timeline 3`s Cell was destroyed by Trunks and kuririn after Timeline 1`s Cell tells Piccolo about his origins. They go to Dr. Gero Lab and destroy the lab along with Timeline 3`s Cell while taking the blueprints. Timeline 1`s Cell was later destroyed by SSJ2 Gohan.

Er... I've read the manga, thanks. ^^;

My problem with that is the fact Trunks shows up at all in what you call "timeline 3", the timeline created by Cell. To me, that doesn't make sense. Trunks didn't go there. I believe the new timeline created by Cell should have Freeza be defeated by Gokû.
While that does create the issue I mentioned above (whatever happened to Future Cell in that timeline? Future Trunks certainly didn't hear about him before hopping in his time machine), I still find the whole thing quite a bit more palatable than a new timeline where a Future Trunks is just "fated" to eventually appear.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:35 pm

Er... It's not like we really know anything about Cell's status/power at the point of Trunks' return...

I think we do. Cell was made to absorb the cyborgs. Therefore it has to be capable in doing so. Meaning he has to be stronger than them. Trunks was weaker than the cyborgs.

This Cell would have trouble against stronger cyborgs, like the ones from the main story. That`s why he absorved thounsands of people and became stronger (actually he did it so he could fight piccolo fused with kami and because he liked it. But that ended up serving him well because it also caused him to have no trouble defeating the cyborgs).

But he wouldn`t need to be that strong to beat the cyborgs from his reality and he would need even lesse power to kill trunks.

I know that. I've said as much. My point being that the Future Trunks we know would actually originate from this timeline, not from the "first timeline".

Trunks goes back in time, gets a remote to stop the Androids in his timeline, goes home, uses the remote... but gets killed by Cell who steals the time machine.
Cell goes back further in time, branching a new timeline from the original timeline rather than from the timeline created by Trunks (basically undoing everything Trunks did in the process). The new timeline is extremely similar to the original timeline, except for the fact Future Cell is there. For some reason (that would require much fanwank... a possible butterfly effect of Future Cell's presence would be that Piccolo and Kami-Sama would merge in this timeline, whereas they didn't in the original one?), Future Cell doesn't significantly alter the course of events, Trunks grows up in a barren world, never hears anything about Future Cell, and decides to go back in time. This would be the Future Trunks we know. He goes back in time in a world where Future Cell is already hidden underground. The events of the manga follow.

Basically, your theory is based on the idea that the new timeline created by Future Cell would branch from the latest timeline created by Future Trunks, whereas I believe going further back in time than Future Trunks should result in a new timeline branched from the original timeline.

I have no more right to my theory than you have to yours.

However, I think I see a flaw in your theory.

If I understand correctly, you think that this would happen "Future Cell doesn't significantly alter the course of events, Trunks grows up in a barren world, never hears anything about Future Cell, and decides to go back in time." in a timeline where Cell has been there for more than, lets say, 15 years, and Trunks doesn`t find out about him.

Well, basically that scenario doesn`t make a lot of sense to me. Since its pretty much the same as the original... Meaning Goku is dead and most of the fighters are dead because of the cyborgs. The only one left is a tennage gohan and kid trunks. By that time, Cell would have developed into maturity.

From what we know from the series/manga Cells first instinct is to kill humans to be stronger and absorb the cyborgs.

In a world with only gohan and kid trunks, there would be no one to stop him. He would absorb people by the thousands and absorb the cyborgs, becoming Perfect Cell. After then he would either become king of the planet, destroy the planet or leave for another planet after killing thounsands including the cyborgs.

I really think that there is no way this would happen, at least without Trunks knowing who Cell was. Doesn`t make sense to me.

Even if the events don play out as I`ve told you, Cell is stronger than the cyborgs.

The only way Trunks would be the Trunks that you want him to be, would be if the cyborgs were alive and Cell would be unknow.

However, the only way to Cell not be noticed by trunks is if he was killed very early on. By whom? And how? By the cyborgs? I dont think so... They were weaker than him. And if any of the fighters could take on Cell (like kami and piccolo fused) then probably the cyborgs would be killed by one or the other.

I really don`t see any way that would have happened and made sense. At least not more sense than my theory, which, to me, makes more sense.

If I didn`t understand you I`m very sorry.

I don't believe the manga said anything about that, actually.

Well, its obvious. Main story Cell went to a timeline where Trunks appeared. Otherwise it would be other time line and not the main story.

'Sounds like a regular time machine to me. ;þ

No.

In sci-fi there are basically two types of machines. Time machines and parallel worlds machine.

Parallel worlds machines work pretty much the same and usually don`t have issues with time. It is as if the time is constant or pretty much the same between realities and you merelly shift for one to another.

Time machines are different and usually dont work the same way because there are many theories regarding time travel.

However there are theories that say that when you change something in the past it creates a different reality. Usually these machines tap into the new reality and can only travel along its own timeline (they can not go back to their reality, unless they change what they changed).

Dragon ball`s machine could return to its reality. Therefore it can do more than a typical timemachine.

However, I dont believe it also works as a typical parallel worlds machine. When I see dragon ball, that doesn`t make sense to me. Because if it did, Trunks wouldnt have gone back in time. He could simply go to a parallel world in search of something to get get him rid of the cyborgs. A reality in which they were defeated (and perhaps one with dragonballs to try and give life to the fallen warriors of his own reality and maybe his father). I think that would have made much more sense.

Therefore is must have limits to that range of habilites.

So I developed a theory of how the machine taps into other realities and is coherent with what happens in the series/manga. And that theory, right now is the only one that makes sense to me.

Indeed! :þ
So there goes your rule about not being able to travel in the future of your newly created timeline.

I was talking about travelling directly.

That was pretty much my point, yes.

Your point was to say that my rules could be broken. Like I said, they were not. First he when to TL 1, then to TL 2. Never meant to say anything more than that.

Basically, according to your rules, he'd only have to travel to, say, AD 999.999.999.999 in his own timeline to then be able to navigate at will in timeline 2. As long as it's "in the past compared with his own time". ;þ
Those are flimsy "rules". ^^

Hey, dont blame me. Blame the show/manga. I only told you what trunks did in the show/manga.

That doesn`t conflict with what I previously said at all.

He could have done what you say. But to what end? He only wanted to save Goku and kill the cyborgs and then later Cell. Since Cell`s presence was partially Tunks fault he never got to experiment much with mor time travels.

And I`m glad he didn`t. He would only have created realities with unexpected results. And would not really help him solve the problems in the created realites or his own.

If he did what you say he could.. Than everything probably would be different, right? More realities, different things. Doesn`t mean the rules are wrong. Not to my view at least.

The way I said it works, is the only one that makes sense to me and is consistent with the show.

Like I said, I'd think any time travel should create a new timeline. You apparently think otherwise.
Could you describe a situation where no new timeline would be created? Where there would be "no apparent paradox", according to you?
How is Trunks going back in time to give Gokû his medicine (first trip) any different from Trunks going back in time to help him and his friends against the Androids (second trip), for example?

I think that the problem of reality splitting is a paradox problem.

If I had the ability to time travel and transport myself like Hiro from Heroes I could time travel to 10 seconds ago right outside my house.
After that time I would enter my house and sit at the computer where I`m sitting.

That doesn`t create a paradox at all.

But if I timetravelled and killed myself as a baby that would create a huge paradox, because if I died as a baby I would not kill myself as a baby. See the problem?

There are various theories here.

Some say something would cease to exist. One of the realities, or maybe both.

Other say both realities would exist in parallel worlds.

In dragon ball, since the timeline of Trunks continues to exist, then the theory that remains is the multiple reality.

However these problems are associated with the problem of paradox.

Would a time travel without an apparent paradox create another reality? I dont know.

Timeline 2 was already separated from Timeline 1 so I dont know if any paradox would emerge.

Yup. A new timeline derived from the original timeline, not from the latest timeline, despite the fact the branching point would be located before Trunks' starting point. Here lies the loophole.

When you travel to a timeline and create another timeline that timeline emerges from the timeline you just arrived.

My rules only talk about being able to travel to which timeline.

But when a timeline is created, its always splitting from the timeline you have just arrived.

When Trunks travels the first time, its to his own timeline (but creates timeline 2 from timeline 1).

When Cell Time travels he travels to time line 2, creating timeline 3 from timeline 2.

When trunks goes back to timeline 1 but to a point where the cyborgs are not destroyed, it creates Timeline 4 FROM timeline 1.

Always from the timeline where the machine arrived.

So I failed to see the so called loophole.

Again, 'not sure how you can say that...

As far as we know about the story, is does not create problems with continuity. It doesn`t interfere with what has happened. Doesn`t create any paradox, as far as we know.
However, if another reality would appear due to this, I don`t know.

My problem with that is the fact Trunks shows up at all in what you call "timeline 3", the timeline created by Cell. To me, that doesn't make sense. Trunks didn't go there. I believe the new timeline created by Cell should have Freeza be defeated by Gokû.

Like I previously said I fail to see sense in a world where Cell had years to bring havoc to the planet, and pretty much everything remains the same as the original timeline.

So I can`t agree with you there.

But if I failed to understand your theory, and have been thinking incorretly about it, I`m sorry.[/quote]

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:52 pm

rereboy wrote:Cell was made to absorb the cyborgs. Therefore it has to be capable in doing so. Meaning he has to be stronger than them.

Which might be why he was given the ability to absorb regular human beings as well?
And again, we don't even know if Cell had really "reached maturity" at that point.

I think I see a flaw in your theory.

I wouldn't be surprised. ^^

If I understand correctly, you think that this would happen "Future Cell doesn't significantly alter the course of events, Trunks grows up in a barren world, never hears anything about Future Cell, and decides to go back in time." in a timeline where Cell has been there for more than, lets say, 15 years, and Trunks doesn`t find out about him.

Right.

Well, basically that scenario doesn`t make a lot of sense to me. Since its pretty much the same as the original... Meaning Goku is dead and most of the fighters are dead because of the cyborgs. The only one left is a tennage gohan and kid trunks. By that time, Cell would have developed into maturity.

Based on what we've seen in the manga, Future Cell should "wake up" right after the Androids' appearance, indeed. Like I said, much fanwank is needed, here! ^^

Here's a possibility:

Gokû is dead.
Dr. Gero feels a bit stupid. "I just transplanted my brain in a machine, and I hear the little bugger is dead already?? ... Oh, well, I'm immortal, now. 'Might as well rule over this world."
#19 and #20 test their abilities by destroying some city, just as planned. Epic success!
The good guys obviously didn't expect that and are puzzled (they can't feel any ki).
Piccolo consults Kami-Sama. Kami-Sama seems concerned, not just because of those crazy terrorists, but also because of some vague threat he's been sensing for a while now (Future Cell).
#19 and #20 go back "home". Dr. Gero finally gets rid of #16. 'Twas a failure anyway. #17 and #18 though? He might just use them as soldiers. If he's to rule this world, he can't quite destroy all those cities himself, right? Plus, they're seriously bent on destruction. 'Might have something to do with the death of their parents.
Somebody finds Future Cell's decrepit time machine. "Capsule Corporation"? Huh. Nobody really cares.
Cell shows up.
Kami-Sama and Piccolo merge to fight this new threat (bye-bye Dragon Balls).
The new Piccolo fights Cell.
Dr. Gero watches the fight via the spy robot that's tailing Piccolo. "What the hell is an adult version of Cell doing there? That's not going according to the plan!"
#17, #18, #19 and #20 go and interrupt the fight.
Piccolo is seriously outnumbered and gets killed.
Cell appears to be very interested in #17 and #18, and not that obedient to his maker, as Dr. Gero feared. Now, he's the one who's outnumbered (not to mention Dr. Gero knows him very well). He gets offed, and Dr. Gero makes sure he's completely destroyed (that pesky regeneration).
#17 and #18? Not exactly thrilled by the whole "meant to eventually be absorbed by some monster" plan they just found out about. Now that said monster is no more, #19 and #20 have clearly outlived their usefulness.
The good guys, having felt the fight between Piccolo and Cell, show up. Things go awfully awry for them.
In the aftermath, Bulma gathers that #17 and #18 are Androids that were created by Dr. Gero. #17 and #18 eventually mention that they killed Dr. Gero (probably during a little chat with Gohan?).
Nobody will ever hear the tragic tale of Future Cell though. *single tear*

the only way to Cell not be noticed by trunks is if he was killed very early on. By whom? And how? By the cyborgs? I dont think so... They were weaker than him.

Even when Cell first showed up? I dunno. He was having trouble against the new Piccolo, and the new Piccolo didn't have an easy fight against #17...
'Looks like Cell decided the best course of action was to grow more powerful before trying to take on the Androids.

Well, its obvious.

Well, I've heard better arguments. ^^

'Sounds like a regular time machine to me. ;þ
No.

What I meant is that regular time machines wouldn't be as safe as you make them sound. A machine that could time travel and jump realities would lead to severe consequences and unexpected results? Well, so would a regular time machine. Time travel is a messy thing.

I dont believe it also works as a typical parallel worlds machine. When I see dragon ball, that doesn`t make sense to me. Because if it did, Trunks wouldn have to back in time. He could simply go to a parallel world in search of sometingh to get get him rid of the cyborgs.

Well, that's basically what he's doing. It's just that in order to visit these parallel worlds, he has to "create" them by changing the course of events.
(oh, and he was also trying to save Gokû, if only in another timeline)

Your point was to say that my rules could be broken. Like I said, they were not. First he when to TL 1, then to TL 2. Never meant to say anything more than that.

Just what is the point of a rule that can be so easily circumvented though? Your rules are supposed to impose some limitations, right?

Like I said, I'd think any time travel should create a new timeline. You apparently think otherwise.
Could you describe a situation where no new timeline would be created? Where there would be "no apparent paradox", according to you?
How is Trunks going back in time to give Gokû his medicine (first trip) any different from Trunks going back in time to help him and his friends against the Androids (second trip), for example?
I think that the problem of reality splitting is a paradox problem.

If I had the ability to time travel and transport myself like Hiro from Heroes

Oh, dear. I'm not sure that show is the best reference when it comes to time travel...

"Oh, no! Hiro is trapped in the past! We have to go there and save him before... it's... too... late...?"

Newsflash, dear writers:
The past is a point in time. Not a place. Sweden is a place. The past is not fucking Sweden.
Now, I realize that makes your work a tad bit more difficult, but you've been writing time travel plots for almost three years now, so maybe you should start, I dunno, thinking about it?

I could time travel to 10 seconds ago right outside my house.
After that time I would enter my house and sit at the computer where I`m sitting.
That doesn`t create a paradox at all.

Well, if you're just going to the future... I mean, I'm actually doing that right now. ^^
I was hoping for an example a bit more complex than that... ^_^;

(you then explain what a paradox is and the various theories regarding time travels... thanks, but I knew that already ^^;)

When trunks goes back to timeline 1 but to a point where the cyborgs are not destroyed, it creates Timeline 4 FROM timeline 1.

How come the Trunks-Who-Dies doesn't show up in timeline 4, then?
If Future Trunks shows up in Cell's timeline 3 simply because he did in timeline 2, and timeline 3 is derived from timeline 2 (according to you... I respectfully disagree), the same should be true for the Trunks-Who-Dies in timeline 4. We should have two Trunks in that timeline. Where is the Trunks-Who-Dies?
(of course, I wouldn't expect the Trunks-Who-Dies to die anymore in timeline 4... I should probably just call him "the Trunks-Who-Comes-From-the-Past-With-a-Magical-Remote-That-Can-Stop-Those-Evil-Androids-Dead", here... ^^)

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:44 am

Olivier Hague

We are getting side traked into arguing about every other minor detail, so forgive me but I wont do that any further.

I´m going to clarify my theory one more time so everybody can understand it and then I'm going to terminate my participation in this topic.

My theory has no more merit then any other. I just want people to understand it. I dont want them to agree. Just understand.

So:

Timeline 1: The original timeline. Goku dies after killing Freeza. Cyborgs trash the world. Trunks time travels a few times. The last time he returns he kills the cyborgs but is killed by Cell who then time travels himself.

Timeline 2: The timeline created by trunks in his original travel. We know there are multiple realities in dragon ball because the world of future trunks continues to exist. Since his travel would have created a paradox (by saving goku Trunks would immensely change the sequence of events that lead him to time travel, had he remained in his own Timeline and not created a parallel new one with his voyage) I am forced to assume that at least when a paradox is created during time travelling a new timeline is created. If it happens in others situations I dont know and the manga/anime doesn`t imply there is any other reality besides the 4 that I consider. So they are irrelevant, because if they were really that important, the manga/series would have mentioned their existence.
In this timeline everything happens as it would have happened in the story of the manga/series if Cell hadn`t timetravelled. Since trunks returned to timeline 1 and killed off the cyborgs just to be killed by Cell we must assume that the cyborgs were defeated somehow in this reality. Probably due to the remote. After that trunks returned to timeline 1 to kill the cyborgs and to be killed by Cell.

Timeline 3: The timeline created By Cell when he timetravels. I must assume he travelled to the same timeline that trunks travelled (just a few years in the past, though) because if he didn`t, Trunks from the Future wouldn`t be there. Since he is, this Timeline is the same as the Timeline created by Trunks, but with Cells presence.
It`s the timeline of the main story of the manga/series. So we all know very well what happens.
This reality was created because Cell`s time travel also created a paradox. He couldn´t be a part of the timeline he travelled to because that would affect the sequence of events that made it possible for him to be there.

Timeline 4: after the defeat of Cell in the main story in Timeline 3, Trunks returns home. However, since there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, he must have travelled to the same exact point in time (to the second) in Timeline 1, that Trunks who died travelled to when the battle (in timeline 2) was over. There simply is nothing to suggest that he would travel to another point in time.
Since this point in time is before the defeat of the future cyborgs, and since the presence of Trunks who lived in Timeline 1 would have created a paradox (since Trunks who lived, exists as we know him due to events that happenned later in that Timeline, specifically Cell`s time travel) his travel created instantly another timeline. The timeline 4. Trunks who died, is not there because he made the same journey back, to the exact same point in time but remained in Timeline 1. This timeline 4 is the same as Timeline 1. The only difference is Trunks` power which is much greater and enables him to defeat both cyborgs and Cell from that Timeline.

Regarding your own theory, Olivier Hague, mine has no more merit.

However, when I think about your theory, instead of felling I'm seeing a possible explanation to the timelines issues of dragon ball, your theory goes so far from what we know from the manga/series, from what we are told in it, it drifts so far from it, that I feel I'm seeing a fanfic with a possible explanation to the timelines.

My theory, is nothing more from what I feel makes sense, when I watch the show and try to make sense of the timelines. Its a simple explanation like so many others which might be right or wrong, but it is solely based on what we are told in the manga/series, and it never drifts far from it. The only things I assume or presume are the things necessary for it to make sense in my mind, but they are all based purely on Dragon ball and how things turned out and played out in the series/manga.

In my opinion, the more we drift from the actual manga/series and what we see/are told when we see/whatch the series/manga the more farfetch it will seem, and the more unlikely.

I feel now that my opinion on this matter has been well explained and that everyone will understand my point of view if they think about it. That`s all that I wanted. Therefore my participation on this topic has ended, since I did what I wanted to do here.

And please be free to disagree with me. Its just my opinion after all.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:21 pm

rereboy wrote:Timeline 4: after the defeat of Cell in the main story in Timeline 3, Trunks returns home. However, since there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, he must have travelled to the same exact point in time (to the second) in Timeline 1, that Trunks who died travelled to when the battle (in timeline 2) was over. There simply is nothing to suggest that he would travel to another point in time.

There is nothing to suggest he would either. After all, we were told the time machine wasn't that precise (when Trunks was late for the Androids' arrival, for example), and the events that led to the return of both Trunks are wildly different.

And it's not just about time. We're not told how the time machine handles space, but if it doesn't double as a teleporter, there's a good chance it simply reappears at the same location (yeah, so the Earth itself moved in the meantime, but let's not go there ^^;). Who's to say both Trunks chose the exact same location when they went back home? Again, that would be an incredible coincidence.

And even if both time and location are exactly the same...

The timeline 4. Trunks who died, is not there because he made the same journey back, to the exact same point in time but remained in Timeline 1.

... So you're saying the stronger Trunks would somehow "replace" the weaker one? 'Seems awfully convenient to me. Is it some kind of magic? ^^;

I'd think both Trunks appearing in the same time and place would be... messy, not magical.

If they don't appear in the same place, they should definitely both appear (in good shape ^^) in timeline 4, according to your rules of time travel (since the weaker Trunks appeared in timeline 1, and timeline 4 is derived from timeline 1, he should also appear in timeline 4).

If the weaker Trunks, for some reason, went home earlier than the stronger Trunks, he should still be there in the stronger Trunks' timeline 4. There's no reason for him to simply "disappear" upon the stronger Trunks' return.

If the weaker Trunks, for some reason, went home later than the stronger Trunks, he should also appear in timeline 4, as that would be the exact same situation as Future Trunks appearing in Future Cell's timeline 3 (according to you, naturally... like I said, I don't think he would).

So, no matter what, there's something that doesn't work, if we apply your rules. And saying the stronger Trunks would just magically keep the weaker Trunks from appearing in timeline 4 just doesn't cut it for me, here...

Regarding your own theory, Olivier Hague, mine has no more merit.

Well, it's simpler. Less timelines. It's also close to the official explanation(s).
I just don't think it works.

However, when I think about your theory, instead of felling I'm seeing a possible explanation to the timelines issues of dragon ball, your theory goes so far from what we know from the manga/series, from what we are told in it, it drifts so far from it, that I feel I'm seeing a fanfic with a possible explanation to the timelines.

Oh, definitely. But I think these extra timelines are really necessary to explain the whole thing in a satisfactory fashion. As far as I can tell, it's either fanwank or plot holes, here. I'm really not fond of fanfiction, but I'll still take that over plot holes, personally. ^^

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that my explanation (not the fanwank details, but the central idea that our Future Trunks doesn't come from the original timeline, but is actually a second Future Trunks from the timeline created by Future Cell) is what Toriyama had in mind. In fact, I believe Toriyama was making it up as he went and didn't/couldn't make sure the time travel plot really made sense (and I would think the late decision to create Cell's character is to blame for that).
I just think my explanation works. That's all.

In my opinion, the more we drift from the actual manga/series and what we see/are told when we see/whatch the series/manga the more farfetch it will seem, and the more unlikely.

Naturally. Same here. Ockham's razor and all that. The only reason I drifted away from the simpler theory is that I felt it just didn't work, that's all.

Kanzenshuu

Make sense for me please (timelines)

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