SSJ Goku(Buu saga)?

[Yamcha_krillin]

Is this SSJ Goku stronger then the SSJ Goku at the Cell games,was it possible for Goku to stilll improve his SSJ state?

[JulieYBM]

Well, technicallly he is improving his base form and the Super Saiyan forms just multiply that power, if we want to use that reasoning from the databooks.

[Bussani]

Well, technicallly he is improving his base form and the Super Saiyan forms just multiply that power, if we want to use that reasoning from the databooks.

The data books never specifically say that, really. They say that SSJ Goku was 50x stronger than his base form, but it doesn't say that SSJ is always 50x stronger. As Goku perfected his SSJ1 form that number probably went up, but I think there's a limit to how powerful a form can get before you have to move up to the next one.

The way I look at it is that each form has a range. When Goku reached the point that his base form couldn't really get much stronger, he went SSJ, which was a lot stronger but still had a lot of room for improvement. Through the Cell saga him and Gohan perfected the SSJ form and Gohan moved on to SSJ2. In the Buu saga, Goku had also reached SSJ2 and SSJ3.

So no, I don't personally think Goku's SSJ form at the end of the Cell saga could be improved upon very much.

[rereboy]

Well, technicallly he is improving his base form and the Super Saiyan forms just multiply that power, if we want to use that reasoning from the databooks.

The data books never specifically say that, really. They say that SSJ Goku was 50x stronger than his base form, but it doesn't say that SSJ is always 50x stronger. As Goku perfected his SSJ1 form that number probably went up, but I think there's a limit to how powerful a form can get before you have to move up to the next one.

The way I look at it is that each form has a range. When Goku reached the point that his base form couldn't really get much stronger, he went SSJ, which was a lot stronger but still had a lot of room for improvement. Through the Cell saga him and Gohan perfected the SSJ form and Gohan moved on to SSJ2. In the Buu saga, Goku had also reached SSJ2 and SSJ3.

So no, I don't personally think Goku's SSJ form at the end of the Cell saga could be improved upon very much.

I agree.

[B]

I don't really think so, or there'd be no need for the other forms. Take note how Buu had no trouble with SSJ2, even though Goku and Vegeta had been training regularly during the seven year timeskip.

[otakutrevan]

It would seem the forms have limits but they can get stronger for example. I'm sure that Super Saiyan 1 Buu saga goku could run circles around Super Saiyan 1 Namek saga goku. I doubt theres a limit for Base power strength and the super saiyan forms as well. As long as they train they should all get respectively stronger

[Wojak]

We see Vegeta training in Buu saga as SSJ.
Maybe their training also consisted of perfecting their control of their transformations?
Also, weight training (Goku in Buu saga) can also contribute to better control and speed in fighting.

[otakutrevan]

I dont even see why there's a argument here. The Super Saiyan Forms multiply your base strength...its obvious.

[Bussani]

I dont even see why there's a argument here. The Super Saiyan Forms multiply your base strength...its obvious.

As B said, if that were the case there would be no need to go beyond a Super Saiyajin in the Cell saga. They had to push beyond it because standard SSJ alone wasn't cutting it, the Androids and even Piccolo were surpassing that level of strength. If it was just a straight multiplier then all they'd have to do is train their base forms until their SSJ form was stronger than everyone again.

[otakutrevan]

Very True. I dont believe that Goku could just train in his base form all day and night and expect his super saiyan strength to be more powerful.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Well, technicallly he is improving his base form and the Super Saiyan forms just multiply that power, if we want to use that reasoning from the databooks.

The data books never specifically say that, really. They say that SSJ Goku was 50x stronger than his base form, but it doesn't say that SSJ is always 50x stronger. As Goku perfected his SSJ1 form that number probably went up, but I think there's a limit to how powerful a form can get before you have to move up to the next one.

The way I look at it is that each form has a range. When Goku reached the point that his base form couldn't really get much stronger, he went SSJ, which was a lot stronger but still had a lot of room for improvement. Through the Cell saga him and Gohan perfected the SSJ form and Gohan moved on to SSJ2. In the Buu saga, Goku had also reached SSJ2 and SSJ3.

So no, I don't personally think Goku's SSJ form at the end of the Cell saga could be improved upon very much.

Actually that is incorrect, I received this from Herms awhile back.

There are a couple of different places it's mentioned, mostly in Daizenshuu 7. First, the battle power chart gives Goku's base power during his fight with Freeza as 3 million and his SSJ power as 150 million, and says that it's 50 times greater. Then the technique dictionary entry for Super Saiyan says:

In addition to the outward signs of the transformation such as an aura, golden hair that stands straight up, and sharp, hawk-like eyes with emerald-green pupils, a battle power 50 times that of normal are proof of the legendary mightiest warrior.

The first GT Perfect File book also mentions in its guide to the different types of Super Saiyan that "Super Saiyan 1" increases the person's power by x50.

We see Vegeta training in Buu saga as SSJ.
Maybe their training also consisted of perfecting their control of their transformations?
Also, weight training (Goku in Buu saga) can also contribute to better control and speed in fighting.

Since Super Saiyan puts a strain on the body, it will increase the effects of the training. As you mentioned it would be similar to weight training.

[Bussani]

Actually that is incorrect, I received this from Herms awhile back.

There are a couple of different places it's mentioned, mostly in Daizenshuu 7. First, the battle power chart gives Goku's base power during his fight with Freeza as 3 million and his SSJ power as 150 million, and says that it's 50 times greater. Then the technique dictionary entry for Super Saiyan says:

In addition to the outward signs of the transformation such as an aura, golden hair that stands straight up, and sharp, hawk-like eyes with emerald-green pupils, a battle power 50 times that of normal are proof of the legendary mightiest warrior.

The first GT Perfect File book also mentions in its guide to the different types of Super Saiyan that "Super Saiyan 1" increases the person's power by x50.

What the daizenshuu says still sounds like a description or guideline to me, rather than a flat out rule. A Super Saiyajin is (at least) 50 times stronger, Goku on Namek became 50 times more powerful when he became a Super Saiyajin. That's all true.

But if SSJ is always just a flat multiplier of your base power, then the only way for it to get stronger is to increase your base strength. That would mean that for Goku and Gohan to perfect SSJ in the Cell saga they would have had to have been increasing their base strength, right? You could say it was also about getting used to the form and using it to it's fullest potential, but if that was enough to make it stronger, then they would already have increased the strength increase beyond 50x, wouldn't they?

In addition to that, if there was no limit to the base form's increase in strength there would be no need for further transformations. If there is a limit to how strong the base form could get, then SSJ2 and 3 would probably be perfected as soon as they reached them, which could be a possibility actually since we have no evidence about whether those 2 forms could be improved upon or perfected.

[JulieYBM]

SSj does require a great deal of work to transform and maintain so it's possible prior to their acquiring 'Full Power' SSj it could be that they were losing a great deal of their strength that they would have were they to eat a senzu.

Alas, I still think Son's base power was increasing, probably not as quickly, but with the idea of the multiplier and all...

Alas...

[Saiyan-Professor]

...What the daizenshuu says still sounds like a description or guideline to me, rather than a flat out rule. A Super Saiyajin is (at least) 50 times stronger, Goku on Namek became 50 times more powerful when he became a Super Saiyajin. That's all true.

But if SSJ is always just a flat multiplier of your base power, then the only way for it to get stronger is to increase your base strength. That would mean that for Goku and Gohan to perfect SSJ in the Cell saga they would have had to have been increasing their base strength, right? You could say it was also about getting used to the form and using it to it's fullest potential, but if that was enough to make it stronger, then they would already have increased the strength increase beyond 50x, wouldn't they?

In addition to that, if there was no limit to the base form's increase in strength there would be no need for further transformations. If there is a limit to how strong the base form could get, then SSJ2 and 3 would probably be perfected as soon as they reached them, which could be a possibility actually since we have no evidence about whether those 2 forms could be improved upon or perfected.

Let us say for example that Kakarrot base strength is 5 and you multiply it by 50 you will have 250. Then he trains some more and his base forms combat strength is 10 and you multiply that times 50 you will have 500. The multiplier that Super Saiyan offers remains constant, the only thing that change is the base combat strength. I think those quotes from Herms are pretty clear. That is why Vegeta beat Mr. Buu at the last tournament in Z and Kakarrot could fight someone as strong as Buu in his base form in GT. Moreover, the Transformation Guide on the main page has this to say about
Full Power Super Saiyan.

The term "Super Saiyan Full Power" is coined in the second daizenshuu (it appears nowhere in the manga). It also notes that Goku's aura, while his Super Saiyan power is drawn out to its limits, is "different." There is no indication that either Goku and/or Gohan have reached their "maximum power" while in this stage; in fact, that's quite an outlandish claim to make. There is always room for improvement. Goku and Gohan do indeed grow stronger with time, pushing the Super Saiyan stage to its limits time and time again.

[Bussani]

...What the daizenshuu says still sounds like a description or guideline to me, rather than a flat out rule. A Super Saiyajin is (at least) 50 times stronger, Goku on Namek became 50 times more powerful when he became a Super Saiyajin. That's all true.

But if SSJ is always just a flat multiplier of your base power, then the only way for it to get stronger is to increase your base strength. That would mean that for Goku and Gohan to perfect SSJ in the Cell saga they would have had to have been increasing their base strength, right? You could say it was also about getting used to the form and using it to it's fullest potential, but if that was enough to make it stronger, then they would already have increased the strength increase beyond 50x, wouldn't they?

In addition to that, if there was no limit to the base form's increase in strength there would be no need for further transformations. If there is a limit to how strong the base form could get, then SSJ2 and 3 would probably be perfected as soon as they reached them, which could be a possibility actually since we have no evidence about whether those 2 forms could be improved upon or perfected.

Let us say for example that Kakarrot base strength is 5 and you multiply it by 50 you will have 250. Then he trains some more and his base forms combat strength is 10 and you multiply that times 50 you will have 500. The multiplier that Super Saiyan offers remains constant, the only thing that change is the base combat strength. I think those quotes from Herms are pretty clear. That is why Vegeta beat Mr. Buu at the last tournament in Z and Kakarrot could fight someone as strong as Buu in his base form in GT. Moreover, the Transformation Guide on the main page has this to say about
Full Power Super Saiyan.

The term "Super Saiyan Full Power" is coined in the second daizenshuu (it appears nowhere in the manga). It also notes that Goku's aura, while his Super Saiyan power is drawn out to its limits, is "different." There is no indication that either Goku and/or Gohan have reached their "maximum power" while in this stage; in fact, that's quite an outlandish claim to make. There is always room for improvement. Goku and Gohan do indeed grow stronger with time, pushing the Super Saiyan stage to its limits time and time again.

Hmm, good points. It can be a kind of contradictory subject at times. The quotes you've posted seem to make it clear, but don't always seem to fit with how the transformations are treated in the manga itself.

[Duo]

The series itself doesn't really state how the Super Saiyan power increase works, exactly. During the fight with Yakon, the Kiri reader (or whatever it was called) indicated Goku got about a 4 times increase from transforming, so we really don't know. I just assume transforming means iowqjoanoasnfonSTRONGER and that each stage is still capable of improvement regardless of the ability to access new levels.

[Saiyan-Professor]

The series itself doesn't really state how the Super Saiyan power increase works, exactly. During the fight with Yakon, the Kiri reader (or whatever it was called) indicated Goku got about a 4 times increase from transforming, so we really don't know. I just assume transforming means iowqjoanoasnfonSTRONGER and that each stage is still capable of improvement regardless of the ability to access new levels.

Well if you hold the Daizenshuu in any regard then it appears that the only significant change takes place with the base form combat strength but the Saiyan does have to get used to each transformation and attain of certain degree of comfort with the form.

[Onikage725]

I always thought it was pretty simple. Training benefits the fighter overall, and bonuses stack. New forms yield a greater transformation bonus.

Time for some fake math.

Let's say at base a guy is a 10. He goes SSJ, and now he's a 500. I would say that if he trained in his normal state until his power was 20, his SSJ power would be 1000. However if he trained in his SSJ state until he was at 1000, when he "powered down" he would find his base form toughened up to 20.

Maybe, given the effort to maintain a form, you could think of keeping up SSJ as keeping up that constant modifier. So training in SSJ would simply be yielding results to the base form, but would translate automatically through that x50 filter since the form was active. And you have the bonus of being able to withstand higher levels of training (retroactively benefiting your base, as you wouldn't be able to train at that level otherwise) as well as making it easier to keep the form active.

Further fake math- higher transformations. Let's say SSJ2 is a x100 modifier. Let's say we take the guy above from a few years later. He's a pro at his SSJ1 form, and his base power is now 50. SSJ will now carry him to 2500. Now he unlocks level 2. His transformed power could now go as high as 5000. THAT is the reason for transformation- a larger multiplier. If he trains himself up to 60, his SSJ1 will be 3000 and SSJ2 6000.

If you play Final Fantasy, think about the black magic spells. When you're high level you won't be using the level 1 magic much in favor of level 2 or 3 spells. But if you do use one, you'll find that it still bases it's strength on your steadily increasing magic stat, and is stronger than it was in the early game. Just because it is outclassed doesn't mean it stopped improving.

[Saiyan-Professor]

I always thought it was pretty simple. Training benefits the fighter overall, and bonuses stack. New forms yield a greater transformation bonus.

Time for some fake math.

Let's say at base a guy is a 10. He goes SSJ, and now he's a 500. I would say that if he trained in his normal state until his power was 20, his SSJ power would be 1000. However if he trained in his SSJ state until he was at 1000, when he "powered down" he would find his base form toughened up to 20.

Maybe, given the effort to maintain a form, you could think of keeping up SSJ as keeping up that constant modifier. So training in SSJ would simply be yielding results to the base form, but would translate automatically through that x50 filter since the form was active. And you have the bonus of being able to withstand higher levels of training (retroactively benefiting your base, as you wouldn't be able to train at that level otherwise) as well as making it easier to keep the form active.

Further fake math- higher transformations. Let's say SSJ2 is a x100 modifier. Let's say we take the guy above from a few years later. He's a pro at his SSJ1 form, and his base power is now 50. SSJ will now carry him to 2500. Now he unlocks level 2. His transformed power could now go as high as 5000. THAT is the reason for transformation- a larger multiplier. If he trains himself up to 60, his SSJ1 will be 3000 and SSJ2 6000.

If you play Final Fantasy, think about the black magic spells. When you're high level you won't be using the level 1 magic much in favor of level 2 or 3 spells. But if you do use one, you'll find that it still bases it's strength on your steadily increasing magic stat, and is stronger than it was in the early game. Just because it is outclassed doesn't mean it stopped improving.

That was the most well put manner of explaining the Super Saiyan multiplier that I have ran across.

[Rocketman]

This is how I see it.



Yes, Goku can become a bit stronger by continuing to train his SSJ form, but he will never get the kind of massive boosts that he got in the time chamber, just like his base form will never get the kind of boosts he got in the Namek Saga.