The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Kaboom]

Gotenks might have enough power/shenanigans to survive for a few seconds until Gohan-Buu gets bored. Everybody else dies instantly.

Yeah, I'd agree with this. SSj3 Gotenks most likely tops out around half of Boo's power, and that's going to at least warrant some personal attention in order to to kill him rather than just getting wiped out immediately at the same time as everyone else.

[Saiga]

Dragon Ball is a series where the power gaps can get so high that even throwing a bunch of weaker enemies in won't change the tide of the battle. You'd need a group of people around Gotenks' level to have a chance, anyone below that is just going to die.

The only question in this match-up is whether Boo will eat Gotenks or wait for him to defuse so he can get two cookies out of them.

[Nex Carnifex]

Bils vs Gohan Buu

[TheMightyOzaru]

Bils vs Gohan Buu

Birusu will stomp him so hard. It's been stated he is far stronger than any villain in the series. It's also stated he is the strongest character in the history of Z.

[Saiyan Prince Vegeta]

Birusu.
Mystery 5: Frankly… “Birusu” is Strong?!
We’ll be blunt about this at least: “Birusu” is without a doubt the strongest being in the history of “Z”!!!

[dbzfan7]

The only question in this match-up is whether Boo will eat Gotenks or wait for him to defuse so he can get two cookies out of them.

Best answer for the debate

For the Bils debate I will wait for the movie. From reputation I'll go with Bils, but I will wait for the movie to see if that stance stays the same.

[Saiga]

Bils wins, barring absorption or candy shenanigans.

[Insertclevername]

For me, I'd wait until the movie comes out until I make a fair assessment. "Strongest in Z history" for all we know could just be some marketing buzz.

[Saiga]

For me, I'd wait until the movie comes out until I make a fair assessment. "Strongest in Z history" for all we know could just be some marketing buzz.

I don't think we're going to get anything in the movie that makes it clearer than that, though. At least not any direct comparisons, and indirect comparisons only go so far (although I guess "I've never felt such a huge ki!" coming from Goku or Vegeta would work).

[Insertclevername]

True, but I like to keep kind of cautious about this. I mean with shit like dancing Vegeta, you never know what might be in this movie!

[RandomGuy96]

Cooler vs pre-ROSAT Super Saiyan Trunks

Dabura vs non-Majin Vegeta

Mostly I like these match-ups because I just want to hear the answers to two questions:

One, does anyone still really believe that Cooler was weaker than Super Saiyan Trunks, who was about equal to Namek Goku? If so, why? It seems like just about everything shown related to his power suggests he'd rip Trunks' spine out and beat him to death with it...

Two, was Dabura as strong as Cell, stronger than him, or weaker? Apparently Vegeta post-massive Majin power-up was only on the level of SS2 kid Gohan, who was about equal with Super Perfect Cell... yet Vegeta found Dabura to be lol worthy pre-Majin power-up? On top of that while he was fighting SS2 Gohan, Dabura was apparently impressive enough for Goku to say he might've even been stronger than Cell... so which is it? I'm kind of leaning more towards him being stronger than non-Majin Vegeta since the person who says he's on kid Gohan's level is Piccolo and the person who kind of confirms that is Goku, while Vegeta is one of the most arrogant and idiotic people in the series to the point that it's a cliche whenever he stupidly charges into combat and gets his ass beat.

[Kaboom]

Cooler vs pre-ROSAT Super Saiyan Trunks
Dabura vs non-Majin Vegeta

Going with Trunks after a half-decent fight, and Super Saiyan Vegeta after a tough battle or Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta like it ain't no thang.

One, does anyone still really believe that Cooler was weaker than Super Saiyan Trunks, who was about equal to Namek Goku? If so, why? It seems like just about everything shown related to his power suggests he'd rip Trunks' spine out and beat him to death with it...

As far as I can tell, there's two main options for Goku's strength in Movie 5. Either the movie's one big AU repeat of the Freeza battle where Goku's only as strong as he was on Namek, or it's early on in the 3 years' training for the Androids and Goku's as strong or just a little stronger than he was after returning from Yardrat. Either way, a direct hit to the gut from Coola didn't even make Goku flinch. Even if Trunks isn't QUITE as strong as Goku was, there's not going to be any real difference in how easily he can wreck Coola. As for the second match-up...

On top of that while he was fighting SS2 Gohan, Dabura was...

Heeeere's the kicker. Super Saiyan Gohan was having trouble with Dabra, but both Goku and Vegeta didn't seem to think he was all that. You're right in that IF Gohan was Super Saiyan 2 and thus IF Dabra was on a Super Perfect Cell or stronger level, then he wouldn't be written off as such a non-threat to Goku or Vegeta. Which is one of the bigger reasons I could cite for why Dabra isn't that strong. Hence, my answer to the match-up; Super Saiyan Vegeta probably defeats Dabra after a tough fight, and Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta can and will make Dabra his bitch.

[RandomGuy96]

I guess that explains it about Dabura, but it seems kind of weird that they'd label him a Cell-level guy if he's so much weaker... though they could've been talking about Perfect Cell and not Super Perfect Cell, even though you'd think that they'd specify if they were. No one says "these guys are as strong as Frieza!" when they're only at 530,000. Plus Gohan being in SS2 just makes sense. He did it at the Tournament but not when Satan was running rampant?

Anyway, Cooler's power has confused me, but there are a lot of ways we can determine it.

Stuff we have to go by:
*Cooler assumed that a Goku who had not visually powered up with kaio-ken or Super Saiyan would be strong enough to defeat Frieza.
*He was NOT talking about Frieza's suppressed forms, as Piccolo, who's at least stronger than Frieza's first two forms and stronger than Frieza's third form if you go with the likely explanation that this takes place after Future Trunks arrives, is considered complete trash by Cooler, not someone who could take on Frieza.
*Cooler knows all of Frieza's forms and was viewed as more powerful even without transforming; he says that no one had seen that transformation except Goku, yet he was higher ranked than Frieza, he owned more planets, his henchmen were stronger, and the elites of the Cold army were literally fighting over the right to serve under Cooler.
*Cooler's final form is at least twice as strong as his true form and maybe over 20 times as strong.

Way 1: Official Numbers
Assumptions: Goku was using the same invisible kaio-ken x10 he used on Namek in the fight against base Cooler and was far more powerful than he was on Namek. Cooler isn't a complete idiot.

Cooler's level is officially given in V-Jump as 470,000,000 in his final form and 140,000,000 in his "true" form, which would obviously make Trunks a bug to him. I think this can fit if:

Base Goku = 15 million

Invisible kaio-ken x10 Goku = 150 million

Kaio-ken x20 Goku = 300 million

Super Saiyan Goku = 750 million

This fits together nicely. According to Cooler, without doing any visible power-ups, Goku is stronger than Frieza. Kaio-ken x20 Goku is no match for Cooler while Super Saiyan Goku was more than a match for him, but still only barley survived his Supernova.

A lot of people seem to disregard this number, even if I think it makes sense, so I'll just disregard this number too.

Way 2: Haxxed Goku
Assumptions: Goku was just in base against Cooler the first time, this is an alternate universe, and Cooler isn't a complete idiot.

Cooler assumes that anyone who can fight evenly with his base form is powerful enough to defeat his brother, as shown in his brief scuffle with Goku, which ended with him saying that he can see how Goku would've defeated Frieza. So base Goku is about on par with Super Saiyan Namek Goku, or at least Frieza. When Goku goes kaio-ken x20 against Cooler's final form though, he can't even budge him, and Cooler KO's him with three hits.

So Cooler = more than 20 x 120,000,000 (at least) = more than 2,400,000,000

This is by far the least likely way, but it's still a possibility. It becomes even more of a curbstomp if you remember Cooler lives in anime-land, where 100% Frieza was even with Super Saiyan Goku... so base Goku = stronger than Super Saiyan Namek Goku.

Way 3: Stronger but still kind of reasonable Goku
Assumptions: Cooler is not a complete idiot but only knows about 50% of Frieza's power for some reason, Goku got stronger since Namek.

Cooler assumed that either base or invisible kaio-ken x10 Goku (I'll just go towards the latter to low-ball Cooler's level) is strong enough to defeat Frieza. I'll just assume in this scenario he means 50% Frieza at 60,000,000, and Goku was slightly stronger than that at 70 million. So kaio-ken x20 Goku would equal 140,000,000. Given how much of a curbstomp Cooler vs kaio-ken x20 Goku was- as in, curb-stompish enough that Goku couldn't even touch him and was pretty much done after three hits- it's fair to say that the 25% gap between Frieza and Goku on Namek was bigger than the one between Cooler and kaio-ken x20 Goku, as Frieza at least put up a fight and landed a few hits before going down.

Cooler= More than 195,000,000 to Trunks' 150,000,000...

Way 4: Weakest possible Cooler and Goku
Assumptions: Cooler is an idiot and Goku is only as strong as he was on Namek.

So anyway Cooler either only knows about 25% of Frieza's power for whatever reason or thinks he can take on someone way stronger than him, because he thinks that base/kaio-ken x10 Goku at 30 million is equal to Frieza. He then transforms and beats down Goku even when he does kaio-ken x20, 60 million. Seems like nothing special...

But then you have to factor in his most impressive tanking feat: flying through a kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha with no effort at all.

It's been established that Kamehameha is basically a x2 increase to the user's power level, as shown when Goku at 416 generated a Kamehameha of over 900 against Raditz... actually, it's a bigger multiplier than x2, but I'll be generous.

Cooler completely ignored that attack like water. This implies a huge gap. So a 120,000,000 blast is nothing to Cooler while it is something to Goku (as evidenced by Goku vs Frieza) who is equal with Trunks. It's established, again by Raditz vs Goku and Nappa vs Gohan, that a blast being 3/4 of your power is where you can't ignore it. Nappa takes the effort to deflect a 2900 blast from Gohan and Raditz takes the effort to deflect a 900 blast from Goku. They certainly weren't hurt by it, but this still means they couldn't ignore it. So 120,000,000 = less than 3/4 of Cooler's power...

And this is where you just can't have Goku be Namek-level anymore. It would contradict everything. Given how Goku as a Super Saiyan pretty thoroughly outclassed Cooler, he'd have to be over 150,000,000 because Cooler is over 160,000,000...

I personally this makes the most sense if Cooler is 80% of Goku's power. Strong enough to tank a kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha but weaker than Super Saiyan Goku. Some may say this doesn't match up, since Cooler couldn't touch Goku while Frieza, who was also at 80% of Goku when they fought, could at least budge Goku and land a few hits. Well I think the attacks Goku no-sold were rather half-assed. Remember when Frieza got surprised that base Goku survived a death beam, despite him being more than strong enough to actually fire an attack that hurt? Something similar happened here. If Goku and Cooler had a protracted battle where both were giving 100%, it would've ended a lot like Frieza vs Goku, just without the stamina issues so it would be a bit longer. However Cooler chose to skip the bull and just throw a Supernova, knowing it would probably work.

Way 5: Goku's Yardrat-level

This is what you were assuming as a possibility. I for one don't think this can be the case anywhere, but let's just assume that it is. This one's pretty easy.

Yardrat Goku had more strength in his finger than Trunks had in his body. Trunks clearly couldn't touch Goku... yet Cooler's Supernova, a fast powerful attack that can be charged in something like five seconds, almost kills a more powerful Goku, to the point where merely deflecting the Supernova not only drained all of Goku's energy, but left him so exhausted that he couldn't even move or defend himself from someone who had less than a percent of his power. Cooler could simply throw one of those and win as soon as Trunks proved to be a threat.

Way 6: The Basics

Then again, I haven't watched this show in a while. Maybe I forgot something and the Kamehameha can't multiply your power level if you're already using a kaio-ken... seems kind of weird since Vegeta's Final Flash clearly multiplied his power when he was a Super Saiyan, but I'll just go with it. But here's the basics:

Cooler true form = stronger than Freeza (even if you don't trust guides, all the other points remain: no one else had seen his final form yet he still owned more planets than Freeza, he was higher ranked, his henchmen were stronger, he considers anyone who can fight evenly with his true form strong enough to beat Freeza, and there's absolutely no reason he shouldn't know about Freeza's 100% power).

Cooler fifth form = At least twice as strong as his true form

Trunks = As strong as Namek Goku

Namek Goku = Only 25% as strong as Freeza.

Cooler takes this quite easily.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Gohan went ssj2 out of anger at the Budokai IMO. The daizenshuu's say he lacked anger not that he had none at the Budokai. Yeah it would make more sense if he was a ssj2 but he had a ssj aura, ssj hair, no sparks, and no sharp stair. He was just a ssj.

[RandomGuy96]

Guess that means Dabura is just Perfect Cell-tier, not SPC.

[Fox666]

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[RandomGuy96]

Ah, okay. I was wondering where 140 million came from, as I had only been told that on some forums and had only seen a scan of the final form level. But still, considering Cooler is stronger than Freeza in that form 140,000,000 seems reasonable.

They should be taken with a grain of salt, but if the numbers given in the magazine match up with what happens in the movie I don't see why they shouldn't be used. Hence why I think Cooler's numbers make sense but obviously consider Gogeta's unworkable as they contradict the very movie he's in (SS Goku = stronger than Cooler, SS3 Goku = SS Goku x 8, Janemba = stronger than SS3 Goku who is over 3.7 billion, but less than Gogeta at 2.5 billion?).

[Fox666]

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[RandomGuy96]

That wasn't a dub line? Because pretty much everything else says Cooler in that form was stronger than Frieza, so it would seem kind of weird if that were the case. Or like you said Cooler just never did power up, since he still thought that anyone who could fight even with his final form was strong enough to beat Frieza.

Also, maybe this was a dub line too, but Cooler in his true form specifically says that he wants to see the power Goku used to defeat Freeza. Goku screams "Then I won't disappoint you!" and charges. Cooler then concludes that Goku was powerful enough to beat Freeza from just the little scuffle they had. This indicates to me that kaio-ken x10 Goku > Freeza and Cooler true form > Freeza.

[Fox666]

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