Is Super Saiyan God the next "canonical" SSj4?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well I'd see no reason why it wouldn't be, it's still Ki. He'd probably group them all together, it'd be odd if his thought process was "That's the strongest Ki I've ever felt with the exception of people that have godly Ki".

"That's the strongest mortal ki I've ever felt" or "Besides the gods, that's the strongest ki I've ever felt". God Goku, Beerus, and Whis are a special category.

[Bullza]

Well I don't know about that like what was brought up in another thread you have to have Godly Ki to sense Godly Ki. King Kai and the Supreme Kai's were able to sense Beerus which implies they have Godly Ki and most characters surpassed them.

All Goku said was Ki and Godly Ki is still a Ki.

Not that it matters because the two don't fit anyway. There's the one path which is the Battle of Gods movie and any potential sequels and then there's the GT path. The two don't fit together.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

All Goku said was Ki and Godly Ki is still a Ki.

Well, of course maybe Beerus was included in this statement. But since he is a special case, he wasn't necessarily included. And if you go by the Super Vegetto >= SS4 Goku like I do, he definitely wasn't included.

Not that it matters because the two don't fit anyway. There's the one path which is the Battle of Gods movie and any potential sequels and then there's the GT path. The two don't fit together.

The official timeline has them together so, they fit together, somehow. The problems are Pilaf Gang being old & Goku being a mortal in GT, which could be explained by assuming that the Pilaf Gang collected the Dragon Balls again to wish to get older (only to get too old this time), and Goku losing the ability to use the God power because he was turned into a child.

[Bullza]

And if you go by the Super Vegetto >= SS4 Goku like I do, he definitely wasn't included.

Definitely doubt that now, Super Vegito wasn't even as strong as SSJ God Goku in Battle of Gods let alone a SSJ4 at the end of GT. If Beerus was included when Goku said that then it'd be

SSJ4 Goku >>> Baby Second Form > Beerus > SSJ God Goku > Super Vegito.

Maybe at best you could say that being as Beerus only fought at 70% of his power maybe at 100% he would be stronger than Baby but no way he'd be above SSJ4.

The official timeline has them together so, they fit together, somehow.

It's an anime timeline, the people who made it want GT to be included into it. They wanted Toriyama to make the form in Battle of Gods to look more like SSJ4.

Akira Toriyama said that the main cast were at their max power during the events of Battle of Gods. So they had grown weaker by the 10 year time skip. Goku in GT was stronger than in Z so that right there is Toriyama writing off anything that ever happened in GT as not counting.

Even if Goku couldn't use the God power just because he was a child there's no reason why they couldn't have easily have made Vegeta or Gohan it instead.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

It's an anime timeline, the people who made it want GT to be included into it. They wanted Toriyama to make the form in Battle of Gods to look more like SSJ4.

No they didn't? It's not like they were hounding him to make the form the "golden" Super Saiyan 4 design everyone had been throwing around as fanart from before the film. Yamamuro made the original design buff, with a cape and hair between SS3 and SS4. That's the only similarity.

[AGentlemanSaiyan]

Still guys, BoG came out WAAAYYY after GT, SSJG never existed then. So how would they be able to put in a form that was made 10 years later? It wasn't the writers fault they didn't say anything about it. Essentially GT isn't canon or "orginal content"so most people don't take it into account as a part of dbz. So GT could be one of the many universe's in DBZ's timeline. But still it makes zero sense if SSJ4 goku would say "That's the strongest ki I've ever felt, oh wait nope forgot 10 years ago I fought Beerus. Oh and I have a cool form super saiyan god, wait dafuq I'm I doing using Super saiyan 4." Then Goku forgets that SSJG doesn't exist then and he has to wait 10 years until Akira creates it.

[KentalSSJ6]

Still guys, BoG came out WAAAYYY after GT, SSJG never existed then. So how would they be able to put in a form that was made 10 years later? It wasn't the writers fault they didn't say anything about it. Essentially GT isn't canon or "orginal content"so most people don't take it into account as a part of dbz. So GT could be one of the many universe's in DBZ's timeline. But still it makes zero sense if SSJ4 goku would say "That's the strongest ki I've ever felt, oh wait nope forgot 10 years ago I fought Beerus. Oh and I have a cool form super saiyan god, wait dafuq I'm I doing using Super saiyan 4." Then Goku forgets that SSJG doesn't exist then and he has to wait 10 years until Akira creates it.

How bout we just wait? For all we know a new film could be in the works right now. Maybe Goku loses his SSJG powers, maybe SSJ4 will eventually make a appearance, nobody knows right now so nothing is replacing anything at the moment.

[AGentlemanSaiyan]

How bout we just wait? For all we know a new film could be in the works right now. Maybe Goku loses his SSJG powers, maybe SSJ4 will eventually make a appearance, nobody knows right now so nothing is replacing anything at the moment.

For what we know there IS a new flim , starring Vegeta as the main character. Though I know since BoG their probably going to completely ignore GT or tie it in some how.

[KentalSSJ6]

How bout we just wait? For all we know a new film could be in the works right now. Maybe Goku loses his SSJG powers, maybe SSJ4 will eventually make a appearance, nobody knows right now so nothing is replacing anything at the moment.

For what we know there IS a new flim , starring Vegeta as the main character. Though I know since BoG their probably going to completely ignore GT or tie it in some how.

There is still a sizable gap in years between BOG and GT. They can do all sorts of stuff depending on how they space the timeline. The next film can be 3 years after BOG with Beerus waking up, or can take place 2 days after BOG.

Again, its the waiting game till then, you can say this and that can ignore so and so but it remains speculation till something new happens.

[AGentlemanSaiyan]

Exactly it could be anything, especially since they announced gokus moms name....Why? Gotta wait and see.

[Low Tone G]

Seeing Toriyama's behaviour I can speculate that he totally ingores the anime-version's facts speaking about both GT and DBZ.

Seeing new products like Yo! Son Goku and friends return, (Episode of Bardock), Battle of Gods and Jaco the Galctic Patrolman Toriyama has made a personal view of events and a personal timeline, which several times contradicts with the events from anime.

So They can't fit together... There is a manga-wise history still in progress and an anime-wise history very finished long time ago, which can include Dragon Ball GT too.

[Hellspawn28]

AT does not care about GT and DBZ Movie 1 - 13 since it had nothing to do with them other then most of the character designs. In DBO, GT never happen since Piccolo is still alive and Buu never fused with Ubb.

[Cetra]

AT does not care about GT and DBZ Movie 1 - 13 since it had nothing to do with them other then most of the character designs. In DBO, GT never happen since Piccolo is still alive and Buu never fused with Ubb.

Akira Toriyama did more than that, he even gave some story ideas (some, Aya Matsui was actually the story writer) and is enough concerned about GT to say "they all became so old in the in the last chapter, I even gave Vegeta a mustache so Battle of Gods should take place before all that" (not the exact quote). Whether he forgot it happens in GT and not the end of Z or if he had plans for the mustache at the end of Z and then gave Vegeta the mustace in GT later does not matter here. He obviously remembers and forgets both Z and GT and treats them as important. And that is just one example.

[Hellspawn28]

He still had nothing much to do with GT since he didn't write any of it. I still don't think he cares for GT and the pre-BOG movies that much since they are not a real creation of his.

[Cetra]

Many things he wrote are based on what his assistant said to him. Are Cyborg 17 and 18 or Cell's short 2nd form screentime also not canon then because it was not his idea but accepted by him like GT?

[Hellspawn28]

That's different since #16-18 and Cell appear in the manga. SSj4 is not even in the main source material and stuff does not appear in the source material is not view as canon to most anime/manga franchises unless stated otherwise.

[Cetra]

... and stuff does not appear in the source material is not view as canon to most anime/manga franchises unless stated otherwise.

Not, it's not. Canon and non-canon are both official states that need to be declared by someone who has the right to do. And for Dragon Ball that does not happen. So non-canon is also only something that is called non-canon.

[Rockman X]

... and stuff does not appear in the source material is not view as canon to most anime/manga franchises unless stated otherwise.

Not, it's not. Canon and non-canon are both official states that need to be declared by someone who has the right to do. And for Dragon Ball that does not happen. So non-canon is also only something that is called non-canon.

Fans consider it non-canon because of its lack of source material.

[Cetra]

Fans consider it non-canon because of its lack of source material.

Yes and Fans have exactly 0% right to decide what is canon or not. There are also Fans that say it is canon, it is undefined and they don't care and the only true answer to this topic officially is "it is undefined" because it is.

[RocktheDragon]

Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan God appear to exist entirely independent of one and other.

As such, as opposed to superseding GT's take on a Super Saiyan 4, Super Saiyan God exists outside of both the regular Super Saiyan chain, and more importantly, the continuity in which Super Saiyan 4 exists within.

I think Super Saiyan 4 is always going to be something that is marketed, sold and promoted as part of Dragonball, so I don't think that anyone is going to do anything to either redact its importance or undermine its significance.

The same goes for GT in general. We're never, ever going to see a Dragonball film or further expansion upon the story that explicitly states that 'GT doesn't count'. It's an entire Anime series that is still a salable product for Toei, so why the hell would they want to harm that arrangement? As we continue to see with Dragonball Heroes and how it is incorporating more and more elements from GT, the series still has an appeal.

Basically of this and more!

The only way I can see SSJ4 being invalidated, and hence GT being invalidated, is if Toei comes out with another DB anime that supplants GT in some way. Which I'm sure they would not do because that would be throwing away their hard earned work on the GT series in general.

SSJ God lies outside the continuum of the other SSJ forms as others have said, and I'm quite inclined to agree with such a sentiment.