"Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (incl. "DB Minus")

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But EoB does reference the movie and that for me is enough to kick it out of the canon.

It references characters designed by Toriyama, and it's opening scene is also part of the manga.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not an EoB or Bardock fan-boy that is desperate to make this canon (I've mixed feelings for EoB & SS Bardock). It's just the fact that a) It's a manga from Ooishi, b) It was covered in the manga guidebook Chozenshuu #1, and c) It's latest volume release is modeled as if it's an extra volume of the original manga. These things make me uncomfortable to not consider it manga canon when nothing contradicts it.

[FortuneSSJ]

*Back to Kanzenshuu*

Already saw many shots from Gine. Definitely one of the most beautiful women in the series.
But this new Toriyama art style for DB is just meh. I dont like how most of the caracters are skinny.

[ACCloud]

Well, from reading the synopsis' that people have put up here, I am honestly a bit disappointed that Toriyama chose to override the Bardock special and do a rather different story. I don't think it helps that he only has one chapter to do the whole thing.

With that said, I'll probably still enjoy reading it, and just consider it an alternative take on a great story.
But I think the original special will remain in my 'canon' for the DB universe, because it's just a more interesting and fleshed-out take on the Saiyans in my opinion

[RocktheDragon]

You know - normally I'm pretty disparaging towards over-protective fans that take issue against creators going back and revising, or changing elements of their creation. My usual thought is: 'like it or not - the guy who wrote the story, who created the characters, has total discretion over the universe they have fashioned. It's their ball game, it's their rules - deal with it', but when it comes to Toriyama dipping back into Dragonball? I'm starting to have grave misgivings.

George Lucas' more recent forays into the Star Wars Universe are often brought up as a comparable situation, but frankly, I think it's totally different. Lucas' changes are just unpopular - but his love, passion and knowledge of the universe he created is hard to doubt. Toriyama on the other hand? Not even remotely similar. He's long since passed the point where he has any passion towards his work. What he hasn't forgotten about the Dragonball Universe and its characters, he simply doesn't care enough about to look back into thoroughly enough to not risk uprooting it. He's not remotely bothered about how his revisions and additions effect and contradict previously established elements - and I think that's unfair on the fans of the work, who have made him incredibly rich and given him a wonderful quality of life, and frankly deserve a little more respect.

If he's going to occasionally give in to these flights of fancy that lead to things such as Jaco, he should at least approach the work with due regard and consideration. We all know he's a pretty light headed, easy going guy - and we know that such an approach to his work gave Dragonball its unmistakeable tone - but sometimes you have to have the self respect to reflect on your past work and think: "do I really have the care and passion to do my life's work justice by dipping back into it at this point?".

Let it be.

Yup. I think you did a very good job at summarizing why Dragon Ball Minus is so underwhelming, and for a variety of reasons too.

I'd love to hear Akira Toriyama's own thought process on why he decided to make Dragon Ball Minus another alternative take on events that have already been covered. I'd just like to hear what his state of mind was for writing this, or if he was basically just kind of told to write about this specifically due to the publisher's request.

[Mewzard]

Well, as the creator, he's free to tell the events of something if he so chooses to, and if they contradict something done by an anime adaptation or a side story by another creator, I'd say what he says goes over their works.

Whether it's for the best or not is up to the individual to decide based on their preferences.

[RocktheDragon]

Well, as the creator, he's free to tell the events of something if he so chooses to, and if they contradict something done by an anime adaptation or a side story by another creator, I'd say what he says goes over their works.

Whether it's for the best or not is up to the individual to decide based on their preferences.

I have no problem with what Toriyama decides to do, but I would really like to know if this was his original idea, or if he was just kind of coerced into doing it.

I guess what I'm saying is, if he really just thought this would be a fun one chapter story to produce on a series he is not likely to work on again, then I'd feel a bit better about the whole Dragon Ball Minus scenario in general. But then again, if he really was kind of given parameters in giving us this specific story about Bardock, I don't think he'd even say so explicitly.

[Zephyr]

Not digging the art style, but I always love new additions to the mythos.

And no, Toriyama very minisculely expanding the backstory of a couple of characters doesn't mean he's removing all of their "mystique". For every single thing he depicted in DB-, there's an infinite number of things he didn't depict. There's still plenty that we're in the dark about, plenty of mystery to marvel at, like how

Spoiler:

Freeza knew about Super Saiyan God. My guess is that he was around when the Saiyans had their little scuffle.

[KentalSSJ6]

Not digging the art style, but I always love new additions to the mythos.

And no, Toriyama very minisculely expanding the backstory of a couple of characters doesn't mean he's removing all of their "mystique". For every single thing he depicted in DB-, there's an infinite number of things he didn't depict. There's still plenty that we're in the dark about, plenty of mystery to marvel at, like how

Spoiler:

Freeza knew about Super Saiyan God. My guess is that he was around when the Saiyans had their little scuffle.

*Cough* Makaioshin *Cough*

[ZombieVito]

But EoB does reference the movie and that for me is enough to kick it out of the canon.

It references characters designed by Toriyama, and it's opening scene is also part of the manga.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not an EoB or Bardock fan-boy that is desperate to make this canon (I've mixed feelings for EoB & SS Bardock). It's just the fact that a) It's a manga from Ooishi, b) It was covered in the manga guidebook Chozenshuu #1, and c) It's latest volume release is modeled as if it's an extra volume of the original manga. These things make me uncomfortable to not consider it manga canon when nothing contradicts it.

Why did they add to include that scene at the end when he remembers his crew . That alone is a huge plothole if we include EoB to the canon.

[Luso Saiyan]

Why did they add to include that scene at the end when he remembers his crew . That alone is a huge plothole if we include EoB to the canon.

How exactly is that a plothole?

[ZombieVito]

They are nowhere to be seen in DB- (Bardock even has a completely different crew) and why would Bardock remember them and not Gine (yes I know EoB was first but still).

The other flashback Bardock has can fit since it's not the same as the movie (They are other Saiyans there). That scene can actually be in Vegeta. The last one truly blew it.

[Neon Z]

Well, if we attempt to look at Episode of Bardock completely separately from the anime, those Saiyans could just have been some Saiyans that he saw being killed by Freeza's men before Vegeta's destruction, not necessarily part of his team. I mean, although he reminisces them, EoB itself gives not context to them if you ignore the anime.

[RandomGuy96]

Yeah... this, along with BOG, pretty much seals it for me. I don't want Toriyana involved on the next project.

I mean, was this really necessary? What was gained from retconning the special and pretty much Bardock's entire character?

Fortunately that's not true.

Yes, it is.

[hulkty]

Any English translation yet?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Any English translation yet?

No, why would there be? The official English version of the chapter is out in like 36 hours.

[MagicBox]

George Lucas' more recent forays into the Star Wars Universe are often brought up as a comparable situation, but frankly, I think it's totally different. Lucas' changes are just unpopular - but his love, passion and knowledge of the universe he created is hard to doubt. Toriyama on the other hand? Not even remotely similar. He's long since passed the point where he has any passion towards his work.

I actually disagree. If anything, I think this past year or so has proven that a lot of his "passion" (if you can call it that with a guy like Toriyama) has actually returned. In 1995, he couldn't get away from Dragon Ball fast enough. In the early 2000s, he had distanced himself from it enough to tolerate playfully revisiting the world and characters (Neko Majin). And now, in the 2010s, he seems to have gotten to the point where he actually likes the series again. It's been an interesting transformation to watch.

I hate to give the impression that I'm just blindly following the author, because I'm not that kind of fan. But I honestly, truly don't see what's wrong with what Toriyama is doing here. What exactly is he contradicting by writing this story? Burdock appeared in two panels of the manga. All we know from those two panels is that he 1.) confronts Freeza in space with damaged armor and a headband, 2.) that he seems to have been blown up by Freeza in his first form, and 3.) that he "resisted to the very end." All of that is still very much possible now that Dragon Ball Minus exists. Burdock can love his wife and kids and still be the cold-blooded warrior that fans love. His character isn't ruined. The problem is that people keep trying to drag the animated stuff into this.

So what if he contradicts the first TV special? So what if he contradicts a fanfic by Naho Ooishi that's almost universally hated? Fans of Tōma, Sleypa, and the others don't have to go nuts just because they don't appear in this short, short story. I hesitate to use the dreaded c-word, but it's general consensus among the fanbase that the manga "canon" doesn't always line up with the cartoon "canon." I see no reason why Toriyama shouldn't be allowed to do his own thing with a character that he's never touched before. That said, I am a little annoyed that Goku's age contradicts what we learn about him during the 21st Tenkaichi Tournament. And Freeza knowing about Super Saiyan God makes no sense. Toriyama should get a slap on the wrist for crap like that. But the Burdock stuff? He's doing nothing wrong.

[auspx]

...That said, I am a little annoyed that Goku's age contradicts what we learn about him during the 21st Tenkaichi Tournament. And Freeza knowing about Super Saiyan God makes no sense. Toriyama should get a slap on the wrist for crap like that. But the Burdock stuff? He's doing nothing wrong.

He says that he is 12 years old. He could have been 13. There's almost no physical difference between a 12 year old and a 13 year old. I don't see a problem here and it never made sense that Goku knew how old he was anyway. He lost his memory. He had no birth certificate. He looked like an overweight toddler. Goku didn't really begin to look "normal" for his age until the 23rd Martial Arts Tournament.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

They are nowhere to be seen in DB-

So were Nappa & King Vegeta, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist.

(Bardock even has a completely different crew)

It doesn't sound like Bardock has a crew he always goes around. Toriyama said that Gine was part of a 4-person team, so it seems that the Saiyans form different teams depending on the mission.

[RandomGuy96]

Well, at least it's better than Bardock being sent back in time to become the legendary Super Saiyan. But not much better.

I actually think EOB was (barley) better than this.

[Luso Saiyan]

They are nowhere to be seen in DB- (Bardock even has a completely different crew)

Bardock isn't shown with a crew to begin with, only with one Saiyan. And there is still one month between the events of Minus and the TV special.

and why would Bardock remember them and not Gine (yes I know EoB was first but still).

Yes, his personality is different, but it's not necessarily a plothole.

The other flashback Bardock has can fit since it's not the same as the movie (They are other Saiyans there).

What flashback? The only one he has is of his team he failed to save.

Yes, it is.

Whatever...