"Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (incl. "DB Minus")

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Re: "Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (Tankōbon April

Post by Ajay » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:43 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:Ultimately, it's fan-service, plain and simple. There's no story here. It's just a bunch of, "Ooh, look, it's Goku's parents." "Ooh, look, it's Vegeta and Raditz as kids." "Ooh, look at all the shiny new backstory." What a waste. I'd rather it not have been written, which is a shame because what I've read of Jaco I've enjoyed immensely. But between this and the abysmal Episode of Bardock, I'd say it's clear they need to put this character on a shelf and never, ever use him again.
Wow, that entire post almost perfectly articulated how angry I was after reading it - this last quoted paragraph, especially.

It really was just plain poor. Like I said in a previous post, it reminded me of terrible fan-fiction; shallow, hammy and serving no other purpose but to appease fan fantasies. I don't think I'd mind the latter point if it wasn't so terribly executed.

I just felt incredibly embarrassed after reading it and thought; 'wow, if that's the work your casual reader of Shonen Jump is going to associate Dragon Ball with nowadays then, shit, that fucking sucks.'

Like you said, the issue of canonicity really doesn't and shouldn't matter so long as the content stands on its own. Episode of Bardock is absurd and doesn't make a whole lot of sense but damn, it was at least enjoyable to read and the characters actually had some substance.

Oh well, I probably shouldn't let something like this bother me so much but perceptions of the series can be shitty as it is and it doesn't help when the damn author himself is perpetuating it with releases like this.
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Re: "Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (Tankōbon April

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:51 am

Gaffer Tape wrote: Then there's the fact that this origin story is just such a copy of Superman. I mean, the parallels have always been tossed around. But this...? I half expected Bardock to put his hand on the space pod and say, "They can be a great people, Kal-El-Karrot. They wish to be. They only lack the light to show them the way." So completely gone is the idea that Goku was sent to earth to destroy it by his barbaric race but through a twist of fortune ended up becoming good. Instead, he was sent there by his loving parents to keep him safe. 
He was secretly sent to Earth as an infiltration baby to save him. They even informed Raditz that he was there to destroy the Earth (but didn't tell him why).
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: "Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (Tankōbon April

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:58 am

No, that is not what happened. Gine assumed that was why Bardock wanted a space pod because she didn't know what he was talking about yet. I mean, really, what sense does that make? Aside from the fact that Bardock tells Goku not to look at the full moon for some reason, why would wiping out earth even be a priority? The guy they're working for is about to kill them, so why would they be trying to do some extra work "off the clock"? Besides, I'd think they'd be more focused on the saving his life thing. "Oh, by the way, as long as you're there, try to wipe out the planet too." That would sound positively absurd!

Granted, this is Dragon Ball Minus we're talking about, so absurd, nonsensical storytelling isn't exactly out of its way, so I'm not sure why I'm defending this, but I do think you're misinterpreting that scene.
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Re: "Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (Tankōbon April

Post by medama_oyaji » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:26 am

Yup, Gaffer Tape sums up my issues with DB Minus very well. I, too, was looking forward to reading it even if (and maybe even because) it would contradict the anime special. But I didn't expect it to totally mess with the irony of Goku's character. Oh well, moving on...

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Tankobon changes! It's interesting to flip Bulma's status from student to teacher in DB. Again, I don't quite like it as much as her being a somewhat delinquent student, but definitely not a blow to the story like DB Minus. Are we sure it contradicts the skipping Saturday classes? I mean, she could have been scheduled to teach on Saturday, and she is skipping out, leaving a classroom of confused students! :lol:

Anyway, are the color pages gone in the Super Elite edition as well as the regular one? If so, that's too bad, but honestly the color pages didn't do a lot for me. The toning was pretty great though, so I'm glad that they didn't just grayscale the color pages (which always looks kinda muddy)

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Re: "Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (Tankōbon April

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:27 am

medama_oyaji wrote:Anyway, are the color pages gone in the Super Elite edition as well as the regular one?
No color in there :(.
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Re: "Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (Tankōbon April

Post by garnetjester » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:28 am

I don't think it's that far-fetched that Goku was really sent as an infiltration baby. I mean, they didn't put him in the space pod and told him "GO AND WRECK THAT PLANET" but that was what he was going to do anyway. And they didn't care about it either, it's not like they told him to never kill a single beautiful Earthling soul or whatever.

I don't know, I'm not seeing as much character assassination for Bardock as some of you are. He was still a murderous warrior, he just happened to care about his family as opposed to the previous version.

I was also against the DB minus premise because I hate ~special snowflakeness~ but I think the fact that Raditz never knew that Kakarotto was sent to Earth to be safe (because he didn't even know it was Freeza who blew up Planet Vegeta) and in turn Goku whacked his head and never even remembered one thing about his parents makes whatever happened in DB- a moot point. Who cares, when nobody even knew what Gine and Bardock's real motivation was. In fact, this kind of makes it a bit sadder, considering how Goku told Freeza that he didn't care about his parents or any other saiyans because they were evil and got what they deserved.
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Re: "Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (Tankōbon April

Post by Zephyr » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:47 am

I'm wondering now. What sense did it make for Bardock to not just steal three pods so he and his family could escape together? It's not like Freeza cared that a pod was leaving the planet, so who's to say he would care about a miniscule two more? But then, who's to say he wouldn't?

This is honestly the first thing out of the batch of Toriyama's new DB-related material that doesn't jive with me. If Toiyama wants to add to the story, he should give outlines, or touch up already-existing ones (and have those touched-up ones be further spot-checked by people who actually know the finer details of the story), like with the JSAT and BoG, rather than flat out just draw it straight away like he used to. Not that those two weren't without their own plotholes of varying severity, but at least those were rife with redeeming qualities in spite of said plotholes.

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Re: "Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (Tankōbon April

Post by Marco Polo » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:00 pm

Zephyr wrote:I'm wondering now. What sense did it make for Bardock to not just steal three pods so he and his family could escape together? It's not like Freeza cared that a pod was leaving the planet, so who's to say he would care about a miniscule two more? But then, who's to say he wouldn't?
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 90#p779390

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Re: "Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (Tankōbon April

Post by soulnova » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:09 pm

:eh: It's surprising the amount of hate this is generating.

What's the big deal? As garnetjester said, Goku doesn't remember crap about any of this, Raditz never got the real reason Kakarot was sent to Earth and he's been dead for most of the series. It really changes nothing but our view of the events before the series even started. The only way it affects me is that (IMHO) it makes it a little tragic with Goku still thinking his parents were a bunch of murderous uncaring bastards like the rest of the Saiyans.... but that's only from our point of view as readers. It changes nothing for them and it never will.

DB- is not perfect and I like the Bardock special better, that's a given... but this is not that bad and I like the insight of Saiyan society even if it was tiny. :|
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Re: "Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (Tankōbon April

Post by Luso Saiyan » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:27 pm

Marco Polo wrote:
Zephyr wrote:I'm wondering now. What sense did it make for Bardock to not just steal three pods so he and his family could escape together? It's not like Freeza cared that a pod was leaving the planet, so who's to say he would care about a miniscule two more? But then, who's to say he wouldn't?
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 90#p779390
Bardock does say that they can be found with scouters, but considering the alternative, they had nothing to lose by running away.

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Re: "Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (Tankōbon April

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:47 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:No, that is not what happened. Gine assumed that was why Bardock wanted a space pod because she didn't know what he was talking about yet.
If Gine had misunderstood Bardock, Bardock would have corrected her. Instead, when she told him "Why do we have to do it now? Being an infiltration baby can be very dangerous!", Bardock replied "It's for Kakarotto's safety", he didn't say "No no no, you got it wrong".
I mean, really, what sense does that make? Aside from the fact that Bardock tells Goku not to look at the full moon for some reason
Goku loses control when he turns into an Oozaru, of course Bardock would warn him about it. Oozaru is for emergencies.
why would wiping out earth even be a priority? The guy they're working for is about to kill them, so why would they be trying to do some extra work "off the clock"? Besides, I'd think they'd be more focused on the saving his life thing. "Oh, by the way, as long as you're there, try to wipe out the planet too." That would sound positively absurd!
Their priority was to save his life. They probably didn't care about if Goku would destroy the Earth or not, but they had a reason to send him to Earth, and also an excuse for Raditz. Plus, they weren't sure that Freeza would do something, it could have turned out to be a mistake from Bardock's side.
Granted, this is Dragon Ball Minus we're talking about, so absurd, nonsensical storytelling isn't exactly out of its way, so I'm not sure why I'm defending this, but I do think you're misinterpreting that scene.
Personally, I didn't find it either good or bad, it was exactly what I expected: an extra. And I'm not defending it, you are just wrong. And what exactly is so absurd about it?
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: "Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (Tankōbon April

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:56 pm

I mean, really? Freeza has been asking around about the Super Saiyan, the legendary warrior said to be stronger than all else (even Freeza), and he suddenly and unexpectedly calls all the Saiyans back to the same location? Um... trap, much?
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He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
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Re: "Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (Tankōbon April

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:03 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:No, that is not what happened. Gine assumed that was why Bardock wanted a space pod because she didn't know what he was talking about yet. I mean, really, what sense does that make? Aside from the fact that Bardock tells Goku not to look at the full moon for some reason, why would wiping out earth even be a priority? The guy they're working for is about to kill them, so why would they be trying to do some extra work "off the clock"? Besides, I'd think they'd be more focused on the saving his life thing. "Oh, by the way, as long as you're there, try to wipe out the planet too." That would sound positively absurd!

Granted, this is Dragon Ball Minus we're talking about, so absurd, nonsensical storytelling isn't exactly out of its way, so I'm not sure why I'm defending this, but I do think you're misinterpreting that scene.
I'm not sure I agree entirely. Their main intention may not have been to send Goku to Earth as an infiltrator baby, but that doesn't mean that's not what he was. The first thing he did when he landed on the planet was attack an ~80 year old man after all. Not exactly something he'd need to do if he was just there to chill out and avoid Freeza or wait for his parents to come pick him up. Seems like he's still trying to take out the planet's lifeforms to me...
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Re: "Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (Tankōbon April

Post by Zephyr » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:48 pm

Marco Polo wrote:
Zephyr wrote:I'm wondering now. What sense did it make for Bardock to not just steal three pods so he and his family could escape together? It's not like Freeza cared that a pod was leaving the planet, so who's to say he would care about a miniscule two more? But then, who's to say he wouldn't?
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 90#p779390
Ah I see.
Luso Saiyan wrote:Bardock does say that they can be found with scouters, but considering the alternative, they had nothing to lose by running away.
Well, they would lure Freeza right to where their son was.

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Re: "Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (incl. "DB Minu

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:50 pm

@TheDevilsCorpse

He's a non-speaking toddler. He wasn't in on the plan! Whether or not Goku starts rampaging is totally irrelevant to whether or not he was sent there to wreak havoc. He very obviously wasn't sent there for that purpose.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:If Gine had misunderstood Bardock, Bardock would have corrected her. Instead, when she told him "Why do we have to do it now? Being an infiltration baby can be very dangerous!", Bardock replied "It's for Kakarotto's safety", he didn't say "No no no, you got it wrong".
Him saying it's for his safety IS him correcting her! As in, he says he wants a pod. She gives the reason she thinks he wants the pod. He corrects her by saying the reason he wants the pod is for his safety. Admittedly, we're working from a translation, and the wording is rather vague. But from the context of the story, it's obvious that he's going there for his safety, not to destroy it for sale.
Goku loses control when he turns into an Oozaru, of course Bardock would warn him about it. Oozaru is for emergencies.
I'm sorry, but I'm totally lost here. What does any of that even mean? What does it matter if he loses control? It puts him into a form that makes him more resilient and, therefore, less easy to kill. You say it's for emergencies as if he'd run out of it if he uses it too much. And it can't be saved "for emergencies" because he has no control over when it happens. If some powerful foe attacks him at any point other than when a full moon happens, he can't use that "emergency power," and it's therefore totally useless. I still have no idea why Bardock told him not to look at the moon because it makes no sense unless Bardock, for some reason, really, really didn't want him to kill anyone, but even I don't think that's the case. But if his goal was for Goku to "kill all humans," looking at the moon would be the first thing he'd want him to do.
Their priority was to save his life. They probably didn't care about if Goku would destroy the Earth or not, but they had a reason to send him to Earth, and also an excuse for Raditz. Plus, they weren't sure that Freeza would do something, it could have turned out to be a mistake from Bardock's side.
The last sentence is the first thing I could possibly accept to make any sense. But you saying that is pretty much admitting exactly what I'm complaining about: that going to earth for that reason is a ruse. It's a sham. It's not the primary reason they're sending him there but at most a convenient excuse, so even if it makes sense and avoids a plot hole, it still changes the reason why Goku was sent to earth to a much less interesting and less ironic reason. But, still, why would they need an excuse for Raditz? Why would they want an excuse for Raditz? "Oh, no, son. It's much better you be blissfully unaware the guy you're working for committed genocide against our entire race and probably wants you dead too. That will keep you safe." I mean, for all they knew, Raditz had heard the call and was on his way back to his imminent death too and needed to be warned more than Goku did. The only reason he didn't was because Vegeta said, "Piss off, I'm not doing it."
Personally, I didn't find it either good or bad, it was exactly what I expected: an extra. And I'm not defending it, you are just wrong. And what exactly is so absurd about it?
I never said you were defending it. I was questioning why I was defending it. And, no, I'm sorry. You telling me I'm wrong is not a very strong argument and is actually just rude. I've already spent all of this post and the last post explaining to the best of my ability everything that I think is absurd and why that is. You can either accept my opinions or not.

EDIT: Oooh, ooh. I can't believe I didn't think of this until now, and I haven't seen anyone else mention this either. Not only does Dragon Ball Minus undo the irony of Raditz's revelation: that the person sent there to destroy earth and its inhabitants became its greatest champion due to a simple twist of fate, it also undoes the wonderful poignancy in his conversation with Vegeta later on in the Saiyan arc. When they first confront each other, Vegeta makes fun of Goku for being a lowest class warrior. That trash like him was sent away because that was all they were good for. And Goku counters that by saying that if that meant he ended up on earth and becoming who he was, then the joke was on Vegeta, because Goku had learned that it doesn't matter what you're born as, but what you do with it. And that idea is the crux of Goku's and Vegeta's relationship for the ENTIRE REST OF THE SERIES! All of that is completely null and void now, because he wasn't sent away because he was trash. He was sent away because his parents loved him oh-so-very much! Goku didn't become the man he was that day in spite of what his biological race thought of him; he became the man he was that day because of what his parents thought of him.
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Re: "Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (incl. "DB Minu

Post by Kid Buu » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:24 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:When they first confront each other, Vegeta makes fun of Goku for being a lowest class warrior. That trash like him was sent away because that was all they were good for. And Goku counters that by saying that if that meant he ended up on earth and becoming who he was, then the joke was on Vegeta, because Goku had learned that it doesn't matter what you're born as, but what you do with it. And that idea is the crux of Goku's and Vegeta's relationship for the ENTIRE REST OF THE SERIES! All of that is completely null and void now, because he wasn't sent away because he was trash.
To be fair, Episode of Bardock ruined that too. Apparently, Goku was the son of the original SSJ.

Reminds me of the Naruto series doing a similar 180.
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Re: "Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (incl. "DB Minu

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:28 pm

Yeah, but Episode of Bardock is its own unique brand of stupid, so I can't hold DB Minus accountable for that, especially considering they seem to exist in totally separate continuities.
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Re: "Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (Tankōbon April

Post by Luso Saiyan » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:29 pm

Zephyr wrote:Well, they would lure Freeza right to where their son was.
If they went to where he was sent.

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Re: "Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (incl. "DB Minu

Post by RocktheDragon » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:35 pm

Great job Gaffer Tape at articulating everything I wanted but was too angry to say myself. :clap:

Great job on all your points, and I'm so glad you took the time to make your thoughts known on this. Oh well, as I've said before, at least we have something new to talk about in the DB universe...it's just a shame it had to come about in this way. I'd much rather have prefered it if DB- had turned out to have an intriguing story that added some story in a constructive way, but I guess this is the next best thing...
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Re: "Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (incl. "DB Minu

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:36 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:Yeah, but Episode of Bardock is its own unique brand of stupid, so I can't hold DB Minus accountable for that, especially considering they seem to exist in totally separate continuities.
It's not like the original TV special didn't have any of this either, what with Bardock being the 2nd strongest saiyan alive and all.

Oh, and I agree with almost everything you said.
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dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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