Is Toei Relying too much on DBZ and other older properties?

[Cure Dragon 255]

Sorry if this sounds similar to the jillion "Toei promotes/overexposes DBZ!" and want to clarify this thread is not about that.

Its about how Toei's lack of success in the west post Dragon Ball has lead to massive over reliance on old properties and stagnation


See,I've always had this pet theory that Toei's failure to find a new hit abroad has lead to them rehashing old shows constantly to appeal to the foreign market.

Think about it.

One Piece flopped. I love it with all my might but it did. Its been slowly gaining track but its not going to be a money maker out of Japan.

Pretty Cure hasnt even made it to the air at all in most out of Asia Markets

Toriko got it even worse than One Piece because it flopped in Japan as well as out of it. Its done well in the USA though.


Since this many franchises have failed to make a dent, Toei has made several revivals of their more internationally popular franchises. And they all are extremely lacking to say the least.


I think the situation got so bad that they finally ended the land-locking of Sailor Moon and made Saint Seiya Omega to sell abroad. There was even a Sales Pitch that they hoped SSO would be particularly popular in Latin America with specific mention of countries like Argentina. I'm a journalist in training and I've learned that you cant make a claim that something is true without objective proof. So I wont strut this idea like its a 100% true. So instead of a statement, see this thread as a question. Do you agree this might be true? Disagree?

[MarcFBR]

You seem to forget that their primary market is not the west. They occasionally do something 'for' the west, but it's not the part they are really concerned about.

But the most recent numbers suggest they're in the midst of one of the high points of international licensing for them. Looking at recent numbers versus 2007 (when a few various programs were actually airing on TV, or being licensed for TV, ala- Bo7, new season of Digimon, etc.) they are actually up by around 30ish percent.

I'd say it's rather a case of things being less visible with less anime airing on American TV.

Obviously I can't speak for other countries since I have limited access to that info since I don't speak the language, but even based on what little English info I have, non-USA countries in the Americas seem to have gotten plenty of Toei content.

Much of their current popular content is licensed and out in the USA. I'm not sure what the expectation is beyond that.

Or in short, I'd say the base idea is flawed in that while they do care... they don't care that much (don't get me wrong, adding a token element or two, or in the case of Saint Seiya hoping it will do well is one thing, Saint Seiya has a long history of doing well in the Americas outside of the US/Canada, but they are making the shows for their home market.)

[FortuneSSJ]

With Dragon Ball, Sailor Moon, Digimon and Sainy Seiya back, I think the answer is obvious.

[Lord Beerus]

Well if there was one property that was popular in it's original country and proved to be just as popular, if not more so, in several other countries worldwide, more so than any other property you owned in comparison, wouldn't you focus all you attention to getting as much profit out of that one particular property?

One Piece is a tragic case of tl;dr. And it doesn't help the One Piece has one of the worst examples of continuity lockout that you will ever see in anime or manga. There is no way the average anime fan could find the time watch at least 600 episodes of an anime or over 700 chapters of a manga, just to keep up the plot. It's far too much work. Not the mention the damage 4Kids had done to the image of the show as a whole.

Pretty Cure is basically Power Rangers with more girls. Considering how huge of a cult follwoing Sailor Moon has in the US, I don't understand why Toei don't want to give Pretty Cure a chance in the US or other western countries. Pretty Cure could be a huge merchandise seller in the west.

Toriko's failure for success in the US is 100% Toei's fault. They fucked up the anime in every way possible. The manga had a pretty good following in the US. And if anime was done right, Toriko could have become as big a Bleach did during it heyday.

Saint Seiya lack of status in the west still annoys me. It's such an awesome anime and manga. If that show got a good English dub and aired on Toonami during the 90s and early 00s, it could have reached DBZ levels of popularity. But it suffered same fate as One Piece, poor dub, poor editing, poor advertising and a horrible home release to boot. It eventually got a best home release and English dub but the ship had sailed.

[Cure Dragon 255]

You seem to forget that their primary market is not the west. They occasionally do something 'for' the west, but it's not the part they are really concerned about.

But the most recent numbers suggest they're in the midst of one of the high points of international licensing for them. Looking at recent numbers versus 2007 (when a few various programs were actually airing on TV, or being licensed for TV, ala- Bo7, new season of Digimon, etc.) they are actually up by around 30ish percent.

I'd say it's rather a case of things being less visible with less anime airing on American TV.

Obviously I can't speak for other countries since I have limited access to that info since I don't speak the language, but even based on what little English info I have, non-USA countries in the Americas seem to have gotten plenty of Toei content.

Much of their current popular content is licensed and out in the USA. I'm not sure what the expectation is beyond that.

Or in short, I'd say the base idea is flawed in that while they do care... they don't care that much (don't get me wrong, adding a token element or two, or in the case of Saint Seiya hoping it will do well is one thing, Saint Seiya has a long history of doing well in the Americas outside of the US/Canada, but they are making the shows for their home market.)

Yeah. That's why I dont think its as simple as I make it out about be. I do firmly believe Saint Seiya Omega was made for the Foreign Market. It had an extremely lousy run in Japan from the beginning in a lousy timel, OR it could have been that Toei saw that Lost Canvas had some steam and wanted to cash into that.

I do know that Toei cares most about Japan. But they most certainly hate not being able to get our sweet imperialist foreign cash LOL.

I wonder why Toei has never tried to redo Go Lion (Voltron) now that would be interesting.

[MarcFBR]

I wonder why Toei has never tried to redo Go Lion (Voltron) now that would be interesting.

Well, that gets to the crux of the matter to some degree, and is something a lot of people forget in these types of conversations (although you seem to be aware enough of it, which is partially why you asked I imagine.)

While Toei occasionally (and each time they've failed) tries to deal with the west themselves, they generally license their content to companies in the west.

So it isn't really up to them to go 'Pretty Cure would do gangbusters in the USA.' They try and get people interested to bring it here by saying that to them, but it's up to other companies to do it.

As for Go Lion. Go Lion has no value outside of Voltron, and they have no ownership over Voltron. Go Lion means so little in Japan that it doesn't even have a DVD box despite there being remastered footage available (for awhile Toei was remastering a ton of stuff for a satellite channel.)

So Go Lion means little in Japan and it's only real value around the world is in it's relation to Voltron. So maybe new Go Lion would be of interest to WEP for them to turn it into new Voltron. But how much would they be willing to pay? They've made their own Voltron series twice already. They don't really need Toei.

[Hellspawn28]

Saint Seiya lack of status in the west still annoys me. It's such an awesome anime and manga. If that show got a good English dub and aired on Toonami during the 90s and early 00s, it could have reached DBZ levels of popularity. But it suffered same fate as One Piece, poor dub, poor editing, poor advertising and a horrible home release to boot. It eventually got a best home release and English dub but the ship had sailed.

I agree if Saint Seiya came out in the 90's in the US then the show would have been more popular. I remember Saint Seiya came out on Toonami around 2003 or 2004. I think people at the time where into more recent anime on Toonami and Saint Seiya looked too dated. There's not enough demand for the series in the US which is why no one ever bothers dubbing it. It's same with other franchises from Toei like Kamen Rider and Mazinger Z. Both have a big cult flowing in the US and there has not been a new American rider series since 2009.

I don't understand why Toei don't want to give Pretty Cure a chance in the US or other western countries. Pretty Cure could be a huge merchandise seller in the west.

Pretty Cure is a series made to sell toys to girls. Funimation tends to dub anime to a older audience which is why they don't bother to pick it up. You can't release a show that is made to sell toys if you don't have toys to sell.

[Super Sonic]

I wonder why Toei has never tried to redo Go Lion (Voltron) now that would be interesting.

Voltron was much more popular in the US than Go Lion was in Japan. It's to the point it's considered more of WEP's baby than Toei's. And don't give up hopes on "One Piece" yet. Funimation is enjoying working on it and their dvds do well. And this is awesome!

[Hellspawn28]

I remember hearing that Go Lion did better in the US as Voltron then it did in Japan. It seem like the same was with Zyuranger and MMPR as well. Zyuranger didn't seem to do that well in Japan in 1992 while MMPR became a huge hit in 1993.

[Lord Beerus]

Pretty Cure is a series made to sell toys to girls. Funimation tends to dub anime to a older audience which is why they don't bother to pick it up. You can't release a show that is made to sell toys if you don't have toys to sell.

Good point. And I guess Toei wouldn't be willing to pay to outsource the shipment or distribution of the merchandise internationally either.

[Super Sonic]

With that, Zyuranger was just the latest Sentai series when it came out, while MMPR was the first of its kind here. The interesting thing is Power Rangers Lost Galaxy which had the highest ratings of the franchise (at least for some time, no clue if recent series have passed it) was dubbed in Japanese and outdid Gingaman which it was adapted from there.

[Chuquita]

I've heard rumblings of rumors that Saban is sitting on a Smile Precure license under the name "Glitter Force". The license had been recently set to expire when they renewed it, but not a peep more of info than that.

Honestly, if anyone were to bring Precure over, I'd rather it not be Saban who does it. Especially not after what happened with 4kids and One Piece.
Precure is definitely animated toku/sentai aimed at female audiences. (And it can be a lot of fun to watch; only time I've temp-dropped a Precure was about a fifth of the way into Doki Doki, and even then I eventually came back and caught up).

It's also nice how each year of precure is a different show. New art design, new characters, new staff. The basic framework is there, but it's basically a mad-libs magical warrior show (and I really like it). :3
"The precure are legendary warriors who receive power from _______ in the form of ______ . They work together with ________ to battle ______ who work under the evil ________ who has taken over/destroyed/imprisoned the land of __________ . They are also working to collect/take care of _________ so he/she/it/they don't fall into the hands of ________."

One Piece is definitely a tl;dr case. I only got into it because I wanted to follow at least one of the then-big-three (and that was a decent amount of years ago that I started reading/catching up; no way would I begin One Piece now with how many volumes are out). I lost interest in Bleach after Aizen's turnabout, and I lost interest in Naruto during the chuunin exams (though I did peek in every once in a while once the series began to approach it's final end game; so I know how ridiculous things got with the moon).

Toriko turned me off both because I heard about the author's propositioning an underage girl before I knew about Toriko (bothers me that Oda defended him too, because he's his friend), and because Toei tried to jam Toriko down everyone's throats in the marketing (and it replaced Kai to boot!).

[Cure Dragon 255]

Thanks Mr Super Sonic! I just said that because where I live (Latin America) One Piece has never been redubbed(We got the 4Kids Version). One Piece is certainly not giving up a fight in the USA! Crunchyroll has recently started streaming One Piece (This is the first and only legitimate uncut and true to the original release we've had) I really hope Toei tries licensing One Piece for a new company to redub it or commissioning a redub for us.

I actually DO know Voltron was only popular in the USA and out of Japan. I specifically mentioned because it has huge potential for selling out of Japan. I do know the answer though. World Events Productions owns Voltron and GoLion. If they dont comission it themselves, Toei cant do shit. Well, that and Marc could be right and Toei only cares about Japan LOL.

@Lord Beerus: Make no Mistake. If it was up to Toei they would ensure Pretty Cure would be the next DBZ, However, its not. Its up to broadcasters and they dont want girl shows. And if they do they dont want one as violent as Pretty Cure is. Toei got so desperate because no one buyed it that they sold it to Saban, who plans to release it as GLITTER FORCE. And if you hate that name be grateful that GANGNAM GIRLS got rejected. And even Saban's dub is in the limbo. He bought it and now NO ONE else in the entire world can dub Precure in any country outside of Asia, like Italy learned the hard way. The situation literally drives me to tears if I think about it enough. Especially since YTV in Canada dubbed the first season and they did a terrific job at it. It was successful in the UK too! But Toei wants the USA. God. Damn.


@Hellspawn. Nobody mentioned Funimation. Why did you bring them up?

Of course. Everyone knows Funimation (And Viz Media) would never touch Pretty Cure.

What people dont know is that they've rejected DIGIMON. DIGIMON goddammit. Toei literally wanted to give it to them and they said no. I'm still mad at them. Pretty Cure is doomed I understand why no company would touch it,but Digimon had some major clout with broadcasters and major popularity with fans. It was one the last big hits of the 90's. They could have released all the old seasons uncut and worked with Nicktoons to bring Xros Wars and even Adventure Tri. Digimon Fusion flopped massively because it was so edited in an era where even kids want their anime uncut. And there is major demand for Uncut Digimon.



Funimation seems to be more content forever churning out masterpieces like "AS LONG AS THERE IS LOVE IT DOESNT MATTER IF I FUCK MY BROTHER!"

Sorry you had to see that LOL.

[Adamant]

It seem like the same was with Zyuranger and MMPR as well. Zyuranger didn't seem to do that well in Japan in 1992 while MMPR became a huge hit in 1993.

The interesting thing is Power Rangers Lost Galaxy which had the highest ratings of the franchise (at least for some time, no clue if recent series have passed it) was dubbed in Japanese and outdid Gingaman which it was adapted from there.

Neither of these claims are true. While Zyuranger got its fair it of criticism from older fans that didn't like how it was considerably more "childish" than Jetman, the actual target audience of young kids loved it. The entire "Lost Galaxy did better in Japan than Gingaman" thing is just some lie someone made up at one point and people started believing at face value for no real reason. Power Rangers has never been a thing in Japan.

[MarcFBR]

Power Rangers has never been a thing in Japan.

That's as much a misnomer as the 'Power Rangers when brought back to Japan is hugely successful, moreso than Sentai'

It's clearly been popular enough that since they started dubbing the series again in 2011 that they've kept going.

[Adamant]

Power Rangers has never been a thing in Japan.

That's as much a misnomer as the 'Power Rangers when brought back to Japan is hugely successful, moreso than Sentai'

It's clearly been popular enough that since they started dubbing the series again in 2011 that they've kept going.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by "not a thing". I meant "not a thing" as in not something people in general know about, not something that's actually visible, marketed and promoted.
Power Rangers airs on a single premium satellite channel and doesn't really exist in a capacity beyond that. It's largely an obscurity all things considered.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Power Rangers has never been a thing in Japan.

That's as much a misnomer as the 'Power Rangers when brought back to Japan is hugely successful, moreso than Sentai'

It's clearly been popular enough that since they started dubbing the series again in 2011 that they've kept going.

If it was that popular they would have never stopped dubbing it. And you dont live in Japan to actually tell Power Rangers popularity over there. One thing though is that adults in Japan think that Power Rangers is more cinematic and better made than Sentai, but only because the Disney and Saban Brands era uses lots of fancy cameras and cinematography AND they cant speak english to tell how much the acting sucks due to the terrific dubbing by the Japanese Seiyuu. For someone who is CONSTANTLY telling people that they should not fall for rumors of popularity specially in a country they arent part of, you fell for this thing pretty easy.

[MarcFBR]

Power Rangers has never been a thing in Japan.

That's as much a misnomer as the 'Power Rangers when brought back to Japan is hugely successful, moreso than Sentai'

It's clearly been popular enough that since they started dubbing the series again in 2011 that they've kept going.

If it was that popular they would have never stopped dubbing it. And you dont live in Japan to actually tell Power Rangers popularity over there. One thing though is that adults in Japan think that Power Rangers is more cinematic and better made than Sentai, but only because the Disney and Saban Brands era uses lots of fancy cameras and cinematography AND they cant speak english to tell how much the acting sucks due to the terrific dubbing by the Japanese Seiyuu. For someone who is CONSTANTLY telling people that they should not fall for rumors of popularity specially in a country they arent part of, you fell for this thing pretty easy.

Except I never said it was very popular. I said it was 'popular enough' that since they brought it back they've continued on.

And of course the English acting doesn't matter since the TV airings are in Japanese.

It's current run has lasted 4 years (no idea if it's continuing on past what just finished.) More than a number of shows in Japan would kill to run that long. Toriko was a signature franchise for Toei and it got the boot after 3. Aiming low and succeeding is nothing to scoff at.

You probably would have made your point better without trying to swing it into an attack saying I was wrong but misstating/misunderstanding what I had said in the first place (and the person I was responding to about it clearly understood what was saying.)

(And of course, you sort of rant about me giving opinions on what Japanese people think when I don't live in Japan, but you are effectively commenting on the same despite not living there yourself. Not to mention you don't have to live in a country to know if something is successful there or not.)

[Cure Dragon 255]

I'm sorry. I definitely got a bit irked because you felt like commenting on the popularity of stuff on other regions such as Latin America and then just seemingly took this rumor at face value Especially since you said Power Rangers was "IE:Even more so than Sentai" as in MORE popular than Sentai, this was a pretty ballsy guess. I'm really sorry for the vindictive tone. It really was uncalled for.

[MarcFBR]

Especially since you said Power Rangers was "IE:Even more so than Sentai" as in MORE popular than Sentai, this was a pretty ballsy guess.

That was me commenting on someone else saying it, hence my putting marks around the statement.